# Should Homophobe Muslims in the west realize that diversity and respect run both ways? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290 "2012-02-19T01:02:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/141 "2012-02-20T20:54:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How would you know? Rush would send him coded messages through his radio. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/142 "2012-02-20T21:06:54Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Which is to be expected, of course. Anyone who points out that the influx of Muslims into Western nations cause is causing changes detrimental to those nations creates some serious problems for the ideology of multiculturalism, currently the prevailing religion amongst our intellectual, cultural and political elites. Upset them, or those who wish they were of them, and you will inevitably be called an -ist or a -phobe. Let the two minutes hate begin. My case it is rested, Hastings. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/143 "2012-02-20T21:42:04Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > It was also no coincidence that those conversions generally occurred in the wake of conquering armies, and a great many of the atrocities attributed to them weren’t just Christian propaganda. Nobody can really dispute that military force was critical to the early successes of Islam, but then you’re the guy who insisted with a straight face that the bloody Muslim invasions of India were a “peaceful migration.” You are confusing India and Indonesia. Islam entered India with the Mogul conquerors. I have never claimed that entering India was “peaceful,” only that it was a normal human conquest, not some special religious effort. OTOH, Islam entered Indonesia peacefully with traders and was not brought with warfare, at all. As to “atrocities,” that was no more a typical event under Islam than under Christians or pagans. (Although in later years, it is interesting to contrast the conquest of Jerusalem by Christians against its reconquest by Muslims.) > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Don’t know about Israel, Kashmir or the Phillipines, but the conflict in the Balkans was largely the result of years of illegal immigration by Muslims that turned Serb majority regions into Serb minority regions. Nor were Serbia’s actions entirely unprovoked. The only reason the Muslims didn’t have the upper hand is that they didn’t grab the heavy artillery from the arsenals when the Yugoslavian state collapsed. That doesn’t excuse everything the Serbs did, but it’s not like they just suddenly went ape shit and started killing Muslims for no reason. Piffle. Movement of people in Yugoslavia was the result of Tito’s efforts to mix up the ethnic groups to ensure that none of them had power. When he died and Yugoslavia began to break up, it was the Serbs who were the most bloodthirsty in every single one of the conflicts. Singling out Muslims as “bad” for defending themselves when Croatians and Albanians and the non-Muslim people in Bosnia all suffered at the hands of the Serbs looks a lot like simply swallowing Serb propaganda. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Most of the world’s conflicts today involve either Muslims killing non-Muslims or Muslims killing other Muslims. If you see a clear pattern of resistance to oppression there, you have a vivid imagination. The majority of the world “hot spots” are places where the U.S. and U.S.S.R. made sure that peoples (generally coincidentally Muslim), were “controlled” throughout the Cold War and the ensuing troubles have much more to do with the normal struggles to fill power vacuums than any religious fervor. Ands your straw man argument fails. I have not claimed that all Muslim associated conflict is resistance to oppression, only noting that several instances that get labeled as though they were Muslim aggression have actually been defensive. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Not following your logic here. Are you saying that, because every religion and culture has been guilty of agression at one time or another, we sould not be concerned about Muslim aggression against us? That certainly seems to be what you’re saying. No. I am noting that I am not making any silly claim that Muslims are more peaceful than anyone else, only noting that they are no more violent than anyone else, current Islam-bashing propaganda notwithstanding. Muslims can be as bloody as anyone else, but they are no more a threat to the world than any other group and it makes more sense to identify individual groups who threaten peace and address them than it does to stupidly and hatefully pretend that everyone who faces Mecca in prayer is a threat. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/144 "2012-02-20T21:48:23Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > the police liason person more or less admitted that this would be impossible for reasons of political correctness. Actually, we have one anecdotal claim that one police liaison person used that excuse to avoid doing any more work. Not very persuasive unless one really enjoys indulging one’s confirmation bias. If this is a routine event, it should be pretty easy to document. (Of course, if your friends’ idea of “reaching out” to the Muslim community sounds anything like the way you speak, I suspect that the liaison officer simply did not want to encourage more of that behavior.) ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/145 "2012-02-20T22:20:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > (Of course, if your friends’ idea of “reaching out” to the Muslim community sounds anything like the way you speak, I suspect that the liaison officer simply did not want to encourage more of that behavior.) You do not know the gay group in question, or the people in it, do you? So you have no way of knowing how effective the “reaching out” by my frends in Berlin would have been, do you? You have not met the policewoman in question or have an iota of proof that she just declined this study because she was lazy, do you? It could be entirely true that the political masters of the police force have indeed told them not to get into stats about the number of Muslim immigrants involved in gay-bashing because they are scared shitless of the controversy. Would that be the first time politicians have supressed information to avoid controversy? You have judged all of this in advance. . . . . say wait. . . . . pre-judged. . . . isn’t that where the word “prejudice” comes from? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/146 "2012-02-20T22:24:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, we have one anecdotal claim that one police liaison person used that excuse to avoid doing any more work. Not very persuasive unless one really enjoys indulging one’s confirmation bias. > > If this is a routine event, it should be pretty easy to document. > > (Of course, if your friends’ idea of “reaching out” to the Muslim community sounds anything like the way you speak, I suspect that the liaison officer simply did not want to encourage more of that behavior.) If WHAT is a routine event? I don’t understand what you mean by “this”. Do you mean Muslim gangs attacking gays or police being afraid to document a trend and publish it for reasons of political correctness? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/147 "2012-02-20T23:41:02Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > If WHAT is a routine event? I don’t understand what you mean by “this”. Do you mean Muslim gangs attacking gays or police being afraid to document a trend and publish it for reasons of political correctness? What do you mean “document a trend”? Certainly the police should comply with the law in making available to the public all information about individual crimes that the law specifies should be made public. However, I don’t see why on earth the police should be the ones to “collect statistics on the ethnic/religious origins of suspected and/or convicted gay bashers”. Why would you want police officers to spend their time doing that sort of social science analysis? Surely that’s part of what actual social scientists should be doing. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/148 "2012-02-21T00:05:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Muslims can be as bloody as anyone else, but they are no more a threat to the world than any other group and it makes more sense to identify individual groups who threaten peace and address them than it does to stupidly and hatefully pretend that everyone who faces Mecca in prayer is a threat. I have never seen anyone on this thread say that **everyone** who faces Mecca is a threat, btw. But Tomndebb’s general statement, above, is another version of the old politically correct canard that all religions are really alike. Bullshit! Some religions have a doctrinal association with violence that gives us every reason to be wary of them. Others are pacifism personified. Take Jainism, for example. Look it up in Wikipedia at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism) Jainism is an Indian religion that prescribes a path of non-violence towards all living beings. Jainists are vegetarians who do not even eat root vegetables because that kills the plant. Now ask yourself, what would an EXTREMIST Jainist do? He would strain his water in case there are any bugs in it, he would wear a surgical mask to avoid breathing in a bug, and he would walk looking down so as not to step on any living thing. I would not be very scared of a Jainist extremist, frankly. So what would an extremist Muslim do? He would hijack planes, slit the throats of the flight crews and fly them into skyscrapers bringing death and destruction to thousands of innocent people in the name of Allah. Look at Buddhism. Yes, Sinhalese Buddhists have fought with Tamils in Sri Lanka, but by and large, given their numbers, how often have you heard of Buddhists conquering countries to convert people to their religion? The Buddha spread his doctrines of compassion and self-denial by preaching as a wanderer. Islam was effectively founded by a merchant/warlord who tried for 10 years to convert people in Mecca peacefully and made very few converts. After he moved to Medina and got some military muscle, he discovered that violence works like a charm. The very literature of Islam, the Koran and the Hadiths, are filled with hundreds of examples of violence and barbarity, of Mohammed leaving his enemies to bleed to death after he had their limbs cut off, of an old woman being torn apart by horses, etc. Mohammed himself stated that he had been commanded to fight until all worship was for Allah. The whole culture of Islam is one of imposing things by violence on behalf of God. Surah 4, Verse 34 actually commands Muslim men to beat the wives “from whom ye fear rebellion”. There have been books critical of Buddhism. Have you ever heard of a Buddhist “authority” pronouncing a death Fatwa against an author as Islam did against Salman Rushdie? There are cartoons poking fun at the Pope. Does the Pope get the Swiss Guard to whack you? Millions of Christians were offended by Martin Scorsese’s _Last Temptation of Christ_ Did Christians riot, kill people and burn down embassies? Would I be imprisoned if I went to any Christian country on Earth and named a Teddy Bear “Jesus”? Is there any other religion in the world today besides Islam in which mainstream opinion says you should be killed if you decide to leave that religion? No, not every single Muslim agrees with these violent means to brinmg about the world triumph of Islam. So fuckin’ what? Hundreds of millions of them obviously do. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/149 "2012-02-21T01:15:18Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > …Look at Buddhism. … The Japanese have Buddhism as a prominent part of their eclectic religious tradition, but they didn’t conquer to spread their religion, they conquered to conquer. For that matter, how do you know that people dead a thousand years weren’t similarly motivated, and that their purported devotion to Islam was the real motivating force? “Gee, I don’t really like slicing people into cold cuts, but, heck, Allah says I have to, well, I guess…” And its not that all _religions_ are very much alike, its that _people_ are very much alike. If you want to make a case for Islamic exceptionalism, well, then, are Islamic _people_ somehow different? Because somebody wrote something down in a book? And if that is the case, why aren’t the Jews more aggressive? The Old Testament is chock-a-block with genocides, massacres, and rub-outs. If you want to suggest that their circumstances were different, sure, but then you introduce the possibility that the Book has little to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/150 "2012-02-21T01:42:24Z")
> [@](#): > > …Hundreds of millions of them obviously do. Obviously? Lucky you, then, as you will have no problem proving it. Proceed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/151 "2012-02-21T01:54:50Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > You do not know the gay group in question, or the people in it, do you? So you have no way of knowing how effective the “reaching out” by my frends in Berlin would have been, do you? Well, they’re friends of yours, so odds are pretty good that they’re assholes, too. I mean, who else would put up with you? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/152 "2012-02-21T02:28:23Z")
The city I live in, has one of the oldest mosques in this country. It has always had a lively and vibrant Muslim community. They are not assertive, militant, aggressive or threatening in anyway. At all. It is to laugh to hear them described as such. My gay friends, in this community, who have been brutally victimized by homophobia, were attacked by white red necks, not Muslims. You happen to have any cites for Muslim homophobic attacks, on the rise, in Canada? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/153 "2012-02-21T02:32:15Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > No, I do not hate Muslims. I am terrified of Islam. > [@Yoda](#): > > “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Fear fear more. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/154 "2012-02-21T02:44:43Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > The city I live in, has one of the oldest mosques in this country. It has always had a lively and vibrant Muslim community. > > They are not assertive, militant, aggressive or threatening in anyway. At all. It is to laugh to hear them described as such. > > My gay friends, in this community, who have been brutally victimized by homophobia, were attacked by white red necks, not Muslims. > > You happen to have any cites for Muslim homophobic attacks, on the rise, in Canada? I don’t know about Canada, but here in the US, every reported gay bashing I’ve heard of was committed by either white rednecks or ghetto African-Americans, not Muslims. Also, Dearborn Michigan has a thriving gay community. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/155 "2012-02-21T02:49:40Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > You do not know the gay group in question, or the people in it, do you? So you have no way of knowing how effective the “reaching out” by my frends in Berlin would have been, do you? > . . . > > You have judged all of this in advance. . . . . say wait. . . . . pre-judged. . . . isn’t that where the word “prejudice” comes from? I have not even judged your purported friends, much less prejudged them. I made an observation regarding their probable personalities based on the fact that you are willing to associate with them. Perhaps they are more tolerant than you are–which might explain why they are willing to associate with you. 😛 > [@Valteron](#): > > If WHAT is a routine event? I don’t understand what you mean by “this”. Do you mean Muslim gangs attacking gays or police being afraid to document a trend and publish it for reasons of political correctness? Pretty clearly, I was talking about a refusal to document Muslim attacks. If that refusal was real and common, there would be any number of groups up in arms about it, yet I cannot find any mention of it on the various gay and gay rights web sites. So, it sounds as though your reported conversation is a one time event that may or may not have occurred. Islamist extremists attacking gays is not a one time event and it has been reported. > [@Valteron](#): > > I have never seen anyone on this thread say that **everyone** who faces Mecca is a threat, btw. That , however, is the gist of your ranting over many months. You give lip service to saying that “some” Muslims may not want to harm homosexuals, then you go right back to treating all of Islam as a threat instead of actually taking the time to identify the specific groups within Islam that may actually be a threat. If you don’t like to have your words portrayed as those of a shrill Chicken Little, stop running around crying “The sky is falling!” ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/156 "2012-02-21T02:56:38Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > The city I live in, has one of the oldest mosques in this country. It has always had a lively and vibrant Muslim community. > > They are not assertive, militant, aggressive or threatening in anyway. At all. It is to laugh to hear them described as such. > > My gay friends, in this community, who have been brutally victimized by homophobia, were attacked by white red necks, not Muslims. > > You happen to have any cites for Muslim homophobic attacks, on the rise, in Canada? It is extremely difficult to get those statistics in many cities of the world because the police keep the statistics politically correct by refering to the Perps as “Asians”. Now of course, an “Asian” can be a Chinese, a Mongolian, an Israeli Jew, an Indian, a Korean, someone from Siberia or a Pakistani or Bengali, a Syrian, etc. When you ask police how many of them were Muslims they tell you that they do not keep statistics on the religion of the Perps. But in places like Amsterdam, for instance, gay people are especially afraid of Moroccan and Algerian gangs. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/157 "2012-02-21T03:00:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > If you don’t like to have your words portrayed as those of a shrill Chicken Little, stop running around crying “The sky is falling!” Thank you for your comments. Even though this is the Pit, I prefer not to descend to your level of childish name-calling. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/158 "2012-02-21T03:01:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, they’re friends of yours, so odds are pretty good that they’re assholes, too. I mean, who else would put up with you? Thank you for your comment. Even though this is the Pit I prefer not to descend to your level of childish name-calling. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/159 "2012-02-21T03:12:19Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Thank you for your comments. Even though this is the Pit, I prefer not to descend to your level of childish name-calling. Did you accidentally quote the wrong posts? Neither, Miller nor Tom called you names. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/160 "2012-02-21T03:13:21Z")
Someone answer my questions: I repeat: There have been books critical of Buddhism. Have you ever heard of a Buddhist “authority” pronouncing a death Fatwa against an author as Islam did against Salman Rushdie? There are cartoons poking fun at the Pope. Does the Pope get the Swiss Guard to whack you? Millions of Christians were offended by Martin Scorsese’s Last Temptation of Christ. Did Christians riot, kill people and burn down embassies? Would I be imprisoned if I went to any Christian country on Earth and named a Teddy Bear “Jesus”? Is there any other religion in the world today besides Islam in which mainstream opinion says you should be killed if you decide to leave that religion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290.md?page=9)