# Should homophobia get more moderator attention? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [May 11, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798 "2015-05-11T17:50:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/141 "2015-05-20T15:08:29Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > To the extent that I understood the UR argument, what he was saying was that the kid might be uncomfortable/unhappy that he doesn’t have a father like other kids, and possibly resentful of the fact that this resulted from a deliberate decision by his parents. Since this is highlighted on Mother’s Day when his two-mother-no-father status is brought to the fore, he is reluctant to celebrate that day. > > Is this true? I have no idea. Wouldn’t surprise me if it is. Wouldn’t surprise me if it isn’t. > > But I don’t see any reason to treat this hypothesis as definitively untrue based on the mere absence of any proof that it’s true. And in the context of this MB, ISTM that absent the hot button aspect and from a logical standpoint it’s not unlike a lot of other opinions that people post based on what they think makes sense. It would surprise me very much if it were true. It strikes me as something I would read in a Chick Tract, and is contrary to all of my lived experience with the children of gay couples. It would also surprise me very much if it were true that religious people had different brain structures that impaired their logical reasoning. They strike me as being in roughly the same category of rank speculation more likely attributable to bigotry than any sincere effort at truth-seeking. But the levels of anticipated surprise about these findings vary greatly across posters, so what of it? I don’t see why our subjective assessment of the truth value of speculation matters. Either it’s a good idea to try to shunt offensive/distracting opinions about a poster’s core characteristics to their own IMHO, GD, or Pit threads, or it’s not. If it’s a good idea, we should do it in this situation too. If it’s a bad idea, we should allow speculation about how a poster’s race, religion, or whatever is leading to some negative result based on some theory that just so happens to align with the opinions of bigots. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/142 "2015-05-20T15:37:19Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > You people - we people - are not really that important in her life, and here we are, dissecting her life like it’s on a slab. I wouldn’t listen either. If you don’t want your life dissected like it’s on a slab then don’t ask a bunch of random strangers who aren’t important in your life about personal situations in your life. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/143 "2015-05-20T16:24:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > To the extent that I understood the UR argument, what he was saying was that the kid might be uncomfortable/unhappy that he doesn’t have a father like other kids, and possibly resentful of the fact that this resulted from a deliberate decision by his parents. Since this is highlighted on Mother’s Day when his two-mother-no-father status is brought to the fore, he is reluctant to celebrate that day. > > Is this true? I have no idea. Wouldn’t surprise me if it is. Wouldn’t surprise me if it isn’t. > > But I don’t see any reason to treat this hypothesis as definitively untrue based on the mere absence of any proof that it’s true. And in the context of this MB, ISTM that absent the hot button aspect and from a logical standpoint it’s not unlike a lot of other opinions that people post based on what they think makes sense. While it’d be bad enough if that’s all that he said, it’s important to note that his post also, out of nowhere, said things like, “Sorry to burst your gay bubble,” and, “your shoving alot of gay propaganda down the kids throat.” Set aside the three errors in that last quote: these are not words of helpful advice, but straight up unwarranted snarky attacks on the poster for being gay. Even if one adopts the softer position that his thesis isn’t bigoted, or that bigoted theses are permissible in advice threads, his post comprised a personal attack. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/144 "2015-05-20T17:01:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > While it’d be bad enough if that’s all that he said, it’s important to note that his post also, out of nowhere, said things like, “Sorry to burst your gay bubble,” and, “your shoving alot of gay propaganda down the kids throat.” Set aside the three errors in that last quote: these are not words of helpful advice, but straight up unwarranted snarky attacks on the poster for being gay. > > Even if one adopts the softer position that his thesis isn’t bigoted, or that bigoted theses are permissible in advice threads, his post comprised a personal attack. Well he was certainly being unnecessarily snarky, I agree. To the extent that that’s the issue, that’s beyond the scope of my comments. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/145 "2015-05-20T17:04:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > While it’d be bad enough if that’s all that he said, it’s important to note that his post also, out of nowhere, said things like, “Sorry to burst your gay bubble,” and, “your shoving alot of gay propaganda down the kids throat.” Set aside the three errors in that last quote: these are not words of helpful advice, but straight up unwarranted snarky attacks on the poster for being gay. > > Even if one adopts the softer position that his thesis isn’t bigoted, or that bigoted theses are permissible in advice threads, his post comprised a personal attack. And that’s an important point. The justified displeasure with the nasty bigoted snark buries the actual issue: since our society is actually still sorting out this same-sex marriage thing, and the attendant changes to societal expectations, is it legitimate to ask whether a same-sex marriage family is under stresses and behaves slightly differently than a different-sex marriage family? Or are we going to set some kind of doctrinaire standard that SSM is 100% identical to DSM, and we will not tolerate anyone taking a contrary position, even if respectfully? That’s what worries me about this discussion. I wonder if there are some here who want to enforce the latter position at the expense of legitimate discussion, using the bad behavior of a few to justify dictating an enforced position on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/146 "2015-05-20T18:55:21Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > And that’s an important point. The justified displeasure with the nasty bigoted snark buries the actual issue: since our society is actually still sorting out this same-sex marriage thing, and the attendant changes to societal expectations, is it legitimate to ask whether a same-sex marriage family is under stresses and behaves slightly differently than a different-sex marriage family? Or are we going to set some kind of doctrinaire standard that SSM is 100% identical to DSM, and we will not tolerate anyone taking a contrary position, even if respectfully? > > That’s what worries me about this discussion. I wonder if there are some here who want to enforce the latter position at the expense of legitimate discussion, using the bad behavior of a few to justify dictating an enforced position on the issue. Again, I think parallels are helpful. If someone says that a black family might experience different stresses from a white family, that’s one thing. If someone says that a black family experiences different stresses because they’re less intelligent, that’s another entirely. This is where the judgment call comes in. If someone is saying that a kid of two women experiences mother’s day differently from a kid of a man and a woman, that can be legitimate. If they say that the kid is confused and resentful because he doesn’t have a man in his life, that’s different, namely, it’s the sort of bigoted bullshit that belongs in GD, not IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/147 "2015-05-20T19:24:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Again, I think parallels are helpful. If someone says that a black family might experience different stresses from a white family, that’s one thing. If someone says that a black family experiences different stresses because they’re less intelligent, that’s another entirely. > > This is where the judgment call comes in. If someone is saying that a kid of two women experiences mother’s day differently from a kid of a man and a woman, that can be legitimate. If they say that the kid is confused and resentful because he doesn’t have a man in his life, that’s different, namely, it’s the sort of bigoted bullshit that belongs in GD, not IMHO. You’re making an assumption about intent in asserting it’s bigoted. If it’s stated non-respectfully, yes, bigoted. If it’s factual and on-topic, not so. “No male influence” in the context of the original thread has some potential relevance, because of one of the other phenomena mentioned in that thread: “mother” is a gender-based role, and “Mother’s Day” is nominally a day to celebrate a female parent. A dual-mother SSM, therefore, has two people who should be celebrated. And, as pointed out in the thread, it’s usually a parent of the non-celebrated role (i.e., “father” in this context) who often cajoles a teenager to participate. No man in the kid’s life, no one to encourage participation (because, apparently, having one mother encourage the child to participate on behalf of the other mother doesn’t happen. Or didn’t, in this specific case.) It’s a logistical difference, not necessarily a gender/sexual preference difference. Assuming it wasn’t said as a sneer or a snark. As I said, if it was a sneering snark, it’s homophobia and should be moderated along with other bigoted personal attacks. If it’s the basis of a rational examination of a logistical difference, it shouldn’t. As with many things, it’s not necessarily what’s said, it’s how and why it’s said. And that’s subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/148 "2015-05-20T19:29:44Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > “No male influence” in the context of the original thread has some potential relevance, because of one of the other phenomena mentioned in that thread: “mother” is a gender-based role, and “Mother’s Day” is nominally a day to celebrate a female parent. For many reasons this is wrong, but one of the reasons is the assumption that a son of two women is not going to have a male influence in his life. Given the difficulties involved in two women starting a family together, you have to be pretty motivated to be a parent to do so, and it’s going to be vanishingly rare for two women to decide to do so, to have a son, and then not to have a male adult in the kid’s life. Note also the bit about the kid being “confused” and “resentful.” Those have nothing to do with the sorts of essentially logistical challenges you’re discussing. There’s a line. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/149 "2015-05-20T20:25:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > …dammit I wish I could figure out strikethrough code, > … [del]I can’t get it to work either.[/del] ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/150 "2015-05-20T22:45:12Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > [del]I can’t get it to work either.[/del] [del]Curse you and your insufferable knowledge![/del] Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/151 "2015-05-20T23:33:47Z")
To clarify SBMB policy: we generally construe “hate speech” to mean the use of derogatory terms such as nigger, kike, or faggot or statements that members of certain groups deserve to be lynched or otherwise harmed - in other words, extreme cases. We don’t moderate posts that are merely bigoted or ignorant; we figure the Teeming Millions are well equipped to call out instances of this when they see it, as in fact has occurred in the present case. We reserve the right, but don’t have an obligation, to tell someone to knock it off if their negative remarks about gays (or anything else) become obsessive or otherwise creepy; we’ll keep an eye on **UrbanRedneck** now that this individual has been called to our attention. Please report any posts you find objectionable. That said, be aware that our bias is toward more speech, not less, and our judgment of offensiveness won’t necessarily coincide with yours. I’ll leave this thread open briefly in case there are questions regarding the above; if there aren’t any I’ll close it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/152 "2015-05-20T23:42:42Z")
> [@Ed\_Zotti](#): > > I’ll leave this thread open briefly in case there are questions regarding the above; if there aren’t any I’ll close it. I appreciate the clarification, though I obviously disagree with it :). I do have one question. There were a couple of posts that appeared later that I didn’t report, out of an assumption that nothing would be done with them: > [@My 16yo son ignored Mother's Day.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-16yo-son-ignored-mothers-day/719727/258): > > The boy does not have two mothers; he has a mother and a step-mother. Any other assertion is inaccurate (I wouldn’t dare call it “propaganda” because we all saw how that went over.) Forcing a child to call a step-mother, “mom”, is often met with mixed results, regardless of the parents’ sexual preference. If lesbian parents are “exactly the same” as heterosexual ones, I would expect the OP to know this. > > The boy has a father, whom he has never met. The reason the boy has a mother, a step-mother, and no relationship with his father is because that is the situation that suited his lesbian mother. He was never consulted. (As an aside, I can assure you that I would have never preferred my-mother’s-lesbian-lover as a parent over my father, but maybe I’m just a bigot who thinks fathers have value. We all know that, really, two lesbians are “EXACTLY THE SAME” as a mother and father.) > > Now the boy is acting “passive aggressive,” according to the OP, on Mother’s Day. And she hasn’t the foggiest idea why. But what she DOES KNOW is that it has nothing to do with her being a lesbian, even though the boy’s entire family structure is a direct result of her lesbianism. > > Yeah, let’s just all go with that; only a bigot would suggest otherwise. > [@My 16yo son ignored Mother's Day.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-16yo-son-ignored-mothers-day/719727/261): > > Sorry, the boy has a mother and a female step-father. A step-father is a person who married your mother, right? I can’t see how this adds clarity but I will bow to your definition. Am I right that, given what you said, the absence of words like “dyke” in these two posts, they would not have been modded? If so, I know you’ve said your piece, but I strongly encourage the mods and admins to reconsider their interpretation of the “no personal attacks” rule. ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/153 "2015-05-21T02:29:10Z")
I haven’t polled the staff, but think it unlikely there would be any inclination to mod the above post. We haven’t construed this sort of thing as a personal attack in the past. It is not against our rules to be bigoted or ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/154 "2015-05-21T02:34:21Z")
There was hinting awhile ago that calling another poster “bigoted” was off-limits. If it’s okay to call a woman a step-father because she’s one of two women raising a boy, but it’s not okay to call a poster bigoted because he says that, there’s something highly skewed. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/155 "2015-05-21T03:15:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There was hinting awhile ago that calling another poster “bigoted” was off-limits. If it’s okay to call a woman a step-father because she’s one of two women raising a boy, but it’s not okay to call a poster bigoted because he says that, there’s something highly skewed. No one called the stepmother a stepfather; there was a facetious, and hilarious, comment made by me when another poster asserted that a stepmother is ONLY the wife of a father. Obviously, that is false: a mother’s wife could also be a stepmother. If the point, and riotous humor, were lost on you, I’m glad to have had this chance to clear it up. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/156 "2015-05-21T05:08:03Z")
That reads like a giant threadshit to me. It might be worthy of a GD (or Pit) thread to debate the merits of the argument that one lesbian parent is actually a stepmom rather than another mom, but it has no place in the IMHO thread about Mother’s Day. ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798/157 "2015-05-21T10:30:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There was hinting awhile ago that calling another poster “bigoted” was off-limits. If it’s okay to call a woman a step-father because she’s one of two women raising a boy, but it’s not okay to call a poster bigoted because he says that, there’s something highly skewed. I’m not going to get into a hypothetical discussion. If there’s a specific post you find objectionable, please report it. If you did so and got no satisfaction, feel free to start a thread about it in ATMB. Make sure you include a link to the post you take exception to. The present thread has gone off in multiple directions, making it difficult to respond, so I’m going to close it. If unresolved issues remain, please start a new thread and we’ll try to clarify matters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobia-get-more-moderator-attention/719798.md?page=7)