# Should hot car deaths be criminally prosecuted? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 19, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348 "2016-08-19T21:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/1 "2016-08-19T21:55:08Z")
We currently have a heart breaking case being prosecuted. A judge thought he had dropped his baby off at day care and went to work. He found the baby barely alive later that day. Frantic efforts by the father and a neighbor to cool the baby in the shower until emergency responders arrived failed. The defense had a memory expert on the stand yesterday. Very informative. He explained how changes in routine can lead to lapses in memory. Even creating a false memory. “I know that I dropped the baby off”. They are mixing up memories of other mornings with that morning. It’s a horrible thing for any family to go through. The guilt and shame will haunt this man and his family for the rest of their lives. Causing the death of a child is any parents worst nightmare. This can happen to anybody reading this thread. We’re all human. What’s to be gained by society piling on with criminal charges? Is there anything gained by kicking a good man when he’s down? Certainly if alcohol or drugs plays a role then yes, the person needs to be charged. Maybe if time was a factor. Someone rushing to work at the last minute. That wasn’t the case here. This trial will probably end next week. It’ll be interesting to see what the jury decides. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/2 "2016-08-19T21:59:10Z")
In most of these accidental deaths, I think the grief is punishment enough. No need for jail time, no point in it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/3 "2016-08-19T22:20:57Z")
There’s a sort of informal tradition that the first such death in a season gets punished lightly, but subsequent offenses get hammered. After the first such death in one summer, the presumption of ignorance is no longer supportable. ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/4 "2016-08-19T22:28:00Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In most of these accidental deaths, I think the grief is punishment enough. No need for jail time, no point in it. Agreed. Prosecution is pointless. I have kids, and if I caused one of their deaths you couldn’t create a punishment worse than living with it. Maybe if there are suspicious events leading up to the incident (recent life insurance purchases, etc.), but I say leave the parents to their grief. In certain cases, I think it would be appropriate to require the parent to tell their story at designated events to get the message out, but jail is a waste. To the OP, Is this the case in Little Rock? I have relatives there who mentioned it a few months ago. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/5 "2016-08-19T22:36:00Z")
Yes, the judge’s trial started this week in Little Rock. Prosecution has already rested. Defense is finishing up. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/6 "2016-08-19T22:37:37Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > There’s a sort of informal tradition that the first such death in a season gets punished lightly, but subsequent offenses get hammered. After the first such death in one summer, the presumption of ignorance is no longer supportable. There is a giant assumption built into that kind of thinking. That assumption is that the second person pays attention to the news. Seems a bit random. I think the circumstances matter. Dropping off multiple kids on the way to work with some sort of unusual event? Go light. Drop by a bar or casino and get lost in a beer or a game, go hard. Slee ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/7 "2016-08-19T22:38:38Z")
I’m opposed to criminal prosecution lacking mens rea ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/8 "2016-08-19T22:43:51Z")
I can’t see how punishing the parents would make these incidents rarer. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/9 "2016-08-19T22:48:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In most of these accidental deaths, I think the grief is punishment enough. “Adults LOVE to say things like that, but us kids knew better.” I don’t agree. An accident is slipping while walking with your baby, and during the fall it hits its head and dies. There was nothing (short of locking the child in bubble wrap until he’s 18) that can forseeably prevent that. Leaving a child in a hot car is not that kind of accident. As a parent, you have a duty to prevent this. You can’t just assume they are OK, you have to check. More often than it should happen there are people out here, with large families, who end up leaving a child in the car in the heat. “I thought YOU brought him in!” You have to count them! As a resident of Arizona I am particularly angered about this. Every fricken year many idiots lets their kid die in a hot car. Maybe punishment isn’t having the deterrence effect desired, but just forgiving and forgetting? What message does that send? It’s a preventable death. Negligent homicide is a crime in other situations involving death, but somehow when it comes to babies, we should just let it go? > [@](#): > > No need for jail time, no point in it. By that logic, there shouldn’t be jail time for any crime. What’s the point? The victim is dead; they won’t come back. Let the killer go. I’ve seen this attitude on this board before, and that just sounds like BS. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/10 "2016-08-19T22:53:50Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > By that logic, there shouldn’t be jail time for any crime. What’s the point? The victim is dead; they won’t come back. Let the killer go. You’re omitting a big factor here: The parents of a child who dies an accidental/negligent death are likely to feel powerful guilt and remorse; a serial killer who kills his/her latest victim are \*not \*likely to feel that familial death-of-a-loved-one grief. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/11 "2016-08-19T23:17:53Z")
I agree with **JAQ**. **Velocity** - do you think that [this](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mother-charged-son-beats-newborn-sister-death-41324777) parent should be punished? Child neglect is child neglect. You can’t reward (or ignore) stupid or negligent behavior. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/12 "2016-08-19T23:23:02Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > I can’t see how punishing the parents would make these incidents rarer. Because, it lets people know that the state is serious. It’s not just punishment for the death of a child, but punishment for even leaving a child in the car. You enforce this enough, people start to get the message that it’s serious business. Out here, people will break a car window to free a child (or dog) from a hot car. The police will come in minutes if you call. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/13 "2016-08-19T23:34:29Z")
Since it hasn’t yet been posted in this thread, I’ll just link to Gene Weingarten’s Pulitzer Prize-winning article [Fatal Distraction](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/fatal-distraction-forgetting-a-child-in-thebackseat-of-a-car-is-a-horrifying-mistake-is-it-a-crime/2014/06/16/8ae0fe3a-f580-11e3-a3a5-42be35962a52_story.html), which expresses everything that I have to say on this subject. The bottom line is that in cases of memory lapse like those described in the article, no amount of punishment or media coverage is going to prevent it from happening. Only actual memory aids in the car are going to make a difference, and even then there are always going to be accidents. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/14 "2016-08-20T00:27:24Z")
This all goes back to air bags and the need to move children to the back seat where they’re out of sight. A sleeping baby on a busy day is a recipe for disaster. It only takes 1 in 100,000 to forget it was their day to drop the baby off at the sitter. I feel bad for the parents. I keep alarms on my phone as daily reminders for stuff at work. If I had a baby in the back seat I’d probably tie a bit of rope to the seat and clip it on my belt while in the car. I’m that paranoid about such things. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/15 "2016-08-20T00:39:40Z")
In Arizona, it is legal to text and drive. It would seem that no amount of punishment and media attention is going to prevent people from DWT. Should fatalities that arise from some idiot texting and killing someone just be ignored as “accidents”? Should their guilt be sufficient punishment? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/16 "2016-08-20T01:20:21Z")
Jury just came back with Not Guilty. They deliberated about 2 hours. There’s a separate Judicial Discipline and Disability Commission investigation that may decide to sanction the Judge. Very difficult case. I don’t understand why cars don’t have sensors to alert drivers that a baby is in the child seat. A buzzer alerts us when the key is left in the ignition. A baby’s life is certainly more important. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/17 "2016-08-20T01:29:38Z")
This babyperson died as direct result of this guy’s idiocy. Am I right that those facts are not in contention? How is it not a crime? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/18 "2016-08-20T01:38:23Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > There’s a separate Judicial Discipline and Disability Commissioninvestigation that may decide to sanction the Judge. Why? I’m generally of the opinion that these sorts of actions are of such grave negligence that it can be compared to leaving a loaded gun next to a toddler. Not understanding your child is in the car? It takes only a fraction of a second to fucking _look_. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/19 "2016-08-20T01:40:19Z")
There’s certainly a difference between forgetting a child in the car, and deliberately leaving one in the car. I once called 911 over three children, one a baby, in the parking lot of our building, not looking good, in an SUV (black) with the windows cracked, but not rolled down all the way. It was about 92’F that day. The oldest kid looked about 4. The middle one was a toddler in nothing but a diaper. When the police showed up the (I presume) mother came running out to the SUV, so she was watching from wherever she was inside. I waited a little bit before I called, and the cops took some time getting there, so the kids were in the car 15-20 minutes. I don’t hope she did jail time, and I think the kids were all right, but I hope she maybe paid a fine, and social services is keeping tabs on her, so she won’t do that again. It was deliberate and preventable, and who knows how long it would have gone on if the police had not shown up. Way different thing from forgetting that you were supposed to drop the kid off at daycare, instead of your wife. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/20 "2016-08-20T01:40:40Z")
Oh, I thought the ethics complaint was about the judge in the case, as opposed to the defendant who happened to be a judge. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348.md?page=2)