# Should hot car deaths be criminally prosecuted? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 19, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348 "2016-08-19T21:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/81 "2016-08-20T19:45:43Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > We are using robots to do surgeries, but that doesn’t mean we don’t punish doctors who make mistakes. We don’t punish every doctor who makes a mistake. We punish doctors who negligently or recklessly fail to adhere to a duty of care or with intent commit a bad act. The law looks for a specific standard of care that it expects the doctor to follow. It doesn’t just punish every failure to remember to do something. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/82 "2016-08-20T19:49:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > **ascenray** - I’m not trying to score points, have a debate, prove anyone wrong, or whatever. I’m trying to understand someone else’s point of view. I don’t believe I need to establish what the law is in order to ask someone to more fully explain their point of view. Whether or not something is or isn’t criminal negligence “by definition” is not just a matter of opinion. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/83 "2016-08-20T19:54:45Z")
I think that parents in these situations should be held to the same standards as other relatives and hired caregivers meaning there should be some serious investigation into whether or not the act was a deliberate “accident”. The idea that the guilt is enough punishment isn’t justice. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/84 "2016-08-20T19:58:39Z")
If it were me, and I am in no way any expert, is if the parent knowingly did something to impair their judgement before accepting responsibility for the child. Drive in after drinking or are stoned or taking meds that make you disoriented or altered and you forgot your kid I’m more inclined to say it’s more than a simple accident and is probably criminal. Leaving your kid with intent to kill them, obviously criminal. But the there are real gray zones- what if you’re just really sick and groggy? I don’t know. Depends. It’s a continuum, but I can accept that at one end it’s always a crime and at the other it’s a horrible accident, but no crime. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/85 "2016-08-20T20:04:10Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I say it because what you said implies we can control things more than perhaps we can. By saying people should be more careful when the stakes are so high, implies automatic culpability of one has an accident. > > Some accidents, even tragic ones, have no culpability. It’s a tragedy and someone is responsible (in that they did it), but not culpable (in that it was completely unavoidable). I do not believe that any babies _have_ to be roasted to death. If someone is responsible, that _means_ they could have done somethi g different; it was avoidable. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/86 "2016-08-20T20:07:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And what is the purpose of prosecuting in cases where it’s an accident? Punishment? Separation of dangerous people from society? I don’t believe punishment is a useful goal for the prosecution of _any_ crime. The primary purpose here is the social-moral message, and deterrence. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/87 "2016-08-20T20:11:57Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I do not believe that any babies _have_ to be roasted to death. If someone is responsible, that _means_ they could have done somethi g different; it was avoidable. Yes. They could’ve not forgotten. You really think I’m arguing that dead babies is the cost of doing business? Really? In all cases here, since the topic was about criminal negligence, that’s the type of negligence I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/88 "2016-08-20T20:18:44Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Yes. They could’ve not forgotten. You really think I’m arguing that dead babies is the cost of doing business? Really? > > In all cases here, since the topic was about criminal negligence, that’s the type of negligence I’m talking about. Yes, those are the alternatives. Either society accepts the casualties of ongoing, avoidable negligence; or, we treat it as unacceptable–a serious crime. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/89 "2016-08-20T20:20:46Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > If it were me, and I am in no way any expert, is if the parent knowingly did something to impair their judgement before accepting responsibility for the child. Drive in after drinking or are stoned or taking meds that make you disoriented or altered and you forgot your kid I’m more inclined to say it’s more than a simple accident and is probably criminal. Leaving your kid with intent to kill them, obviously criminal. But the there are real gray zones- what if you’re just really sick and groggy? I don’t know. Depends. > > It’s a continuum, but I can accept that at one end it’s always a crime and at the other it’s a horrible accident, but no crime. I am still not sure I fully understand, but I appreciate that you gave my questions another shot. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Whether or not something is or isn’t criminal negligence “by definition” is not just a matter of opinion. I’m not following. Are you saying that if someone simply forgets their child in a hot car, the issue of criminal negligence isn’t a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact? Because I am happy to cite cases where people have been convicted of various charges relating to criminal negligence for leaving a child in a car. And there are also cases where very similar actions don’t give rise to criminal charges. It appears to me that the decision not to prosecute cases with very similar facts boils down to matters of opinion, as opposed to such actions not meeting the definition (or theshold if you prefer) of criminal negligence. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/90 "2016-08-20T20:25:01Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Yes, those are the alternatives. Either society accepts the casualties of ongoing, avoidable negligence; or, we treat it as unacceptable–a serious crime. You are still proceeding under the assumption that it is legally negligence and demanding that people justify letting people off for negligence. No one is obligated to accept that as the basis of discussion. It’s up to to establish that it’s always negligent in the first place. Just because something bad happened by itself doesn’t mean there was negligence. That’s not how negligence works. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/91 "2016-08-20T20:28:36Z")
Ask the ones on the board who have had this happen to them to respond. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/92 "2016-08-20T20:30:09Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Just because something bad happened by itself doesn’t mean there was negligence. That’s not how negligence works. Sounds better when Morbo! says it. I’m amazed at all the people that never forget things or never mess up. Ironically, I’d wager that the folks that just “know” that they would never forget are the ones more likely to actually do so. The people that admit they might and are terrified they might are probably the ones less likely to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/93 "2016-08-20T20:58:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > . . . Just because something bad happened by itself doesn’t mean there was negligence. That’s not how negligence works. As a general definition, yes, that’s correct. You’re speaking of all kinds of “something bad.” But when a parent leaves a child in a hot car…that is negligence. There is no other possible explanation. It is a negligent act. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/94 "2016-08-20T21:48:08Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But when a parent leaves a child in a hot car…that is negligence. There is no other possible explanation. It is a negligent act. Yes but not necessarily criminal negligence. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/95 "2016-08-20T22:17:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > We don’t punish every doctor who makes a mistake. We don’t punish every parent who leaves their kid in a car. > [@Magiver](#): > > Yes but not necessarily criminal negligence. Indeed, but when it does, they prosecute for that or a more substantial crime. Why do you have a beef with that? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/96 "2016-08-20T22:22:20Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > As a general definition, yes, that’s correct. You’re speaking of all kinds of “something bad.” > > But when a parent leaves a child in a hot car…that is negligence. There is no other possible explanation. It is a negligent act. This is still the same bare assertion all over again. Unless you can come up with something more than simply insisting that something is true, it’s not worth taking seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/97 "2016-08-20T22:34:20Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > We don’t punish every parent who leaves their kid in a car. > > Indeed, but when it does, they prosecute for that or a more substantial crime. Why do you have a beef with that? What makes you think anyone has a beef with it? ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/98 "2016-08-20T22:35:47Z")
here in the av we solved that problem … its simply a misdemeanor to leave any kid under 12 by their selves in the car … also any store has the right to remove a child from a car if its deemed dangerous … most of the time the sherrif comes by but targets known to break the window ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/99 "2016-08-20T23:08:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What makes you think anyone has a beef with it? I guess just the group of people arguing that there is no point in punishing the parents. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348/100 "2016-08-20T23:17:46Z")
I find it interesting that people jumped on my calling out the ‘non-parents can’t understand’ argument but no one even touched the question about swimming pools and guns. I often hear on this board that a gun owner should be held criminally accountable if a kid injures himself with the gun, and holding pool owners responsible (though usually civilly) for creating an ‘attractive nuisance’ is pretty much universal. I’m wondering how many of the parents saying that there should be no criminal liability for a parent who straps their kid into a car seat, drives the car into a parking lot, then leaves the kid strapped in the car resulting in the kids death think that there should be liability in the gun or pool cases, even though there’s even less of a causal link. > [@guestchaz](#): > > As a parent myself, I am fairly certain that this is not what is meant. It’s what was said, if he meant something sensible then he could say that without descending to based a logical fallacy (argumentum ad hominem). > [@](#): > > My mother-in-law lost her first born to drowning. He was 4 at the time, she lived next to the river that runs through town. She thought he was napping when he had gotten out of bed, used a small step-stool to reach the lock on the screen door, toddled out and fell into the river. Not a comparable situation at all. For it to be comprable to what’s being discussed, she would have needed to strap him into a boat, then decide to leave him in the boat while she went about her day then come to see that he had drowned when the tide rolled in over the boat. A kid going off and doing something dangerous is radically different than an adult forcing a kid into a dangerous situation that he can’t get out of then abandoning the kid while forseeable natural processes kill him. > [@Magiver](#): > > That’s not the argument. The argument is that the court cannot punish the parent beyond the loss. It’s a waste of time. That’s a silly argument on it’s face; of course the court can punish the parent beyond the loss. Being sad is one thing, being sad and in jail is beyond just being sad. I don’t think it’s a waste of time to make extreme negligence, like strapping a kid into a car, then leaving him in the car while it heats up and he suffers and possibly dies, a crime that someone needs to worry about. Just looking at this thread, maybe the people who say ‘oh, well, life is hectic, maybe I leave my kid strapped in the car and he dies, why does it bother you?’ would pay more attention if they had criminal charges to worry about in addition. > [@](#): > > If you don’t understand that then maybe you could provide a legal scenario and describe how it plays out. There are enough lawyers here who can walk you through it. I have no idea what you’re even trying to say here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hot-car-deaths-be-criminally-prosecuted/763348.md?page=6)