# Should house Republicans be charged and tried with violation of the Logan act? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597 "2015-03-09T13:42:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/141 "2015-03-10T20:15:26Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Yes, the GOP who made that letter should. For the next few years, the administration should dedicate every available resource to prosecuting each one of them. If they aren’t punished and made to believe this was a bad idea, it will be the new normal for them. When Hillary gets elected, I could totally see the GOP drafting alternative legislation and sending them to other world leaders imploring them to ignore her and strike deals with the GOP instead. > > I just hope the Democrats would do the same if a GOP president was ever elected again, just to fuck with him Wow. You’d wish harm to the US just so you can claim “they did it first”? That’s pretty scary. But you do want the Democrats to be prosecuted, too, when they do it, right? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/142 "2015-03-10T20:23:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wow. You’d wish harm to the US just so you can claim “they did it first”? That’s pretty scary. But you do want the Democrats to be prosecuted, too, when they do it, right? The Democrats would not seek harmful legislation. I would totally support undermining a GOP president because his policies will be stupid and evil. Dems would only need to fix what he gets wrong. In contrast, what Obama’s doing is a good piece of policy that will help to normalize relations a little bit and prevent the spread of nuclear weapons. Its an objectively good policy, which is why anyone trying to undermine is both violating the law and evil Assuming nothing happens to the GOP, I can want the Dems to be prosecuted as much as I want but it won’t happen. So I’ll answer your question with yes, just because I think you’re trying to shoehorn one of those “both sides are bad” arguments somewhere it doesn’t belong ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/143 "2015-03-10T21:10:40Z")
I want Democrats to undermine a GOP President is his policies are stupid and evil. Or simply illegal. There are remedies short of impeachment. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/144 "2015-03-10T21:20:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I want Democrats to undermine a GOP President is his policies are stupid and evil. Or simply illegal. There are remedies short of impeachment. Yet, you support the GOP doing this to Obama when his actions are none of those. Not wanting to waste lives or money should be a conservative trait. But the modern GOP is so busy grovelling to imbeciles in the Tea Party, that they instead try to foment war, just so they can say they stuck it to Obama. It’s sickening. And it isn’t something both sides do with any regularity ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/145 "2015-03-10T21:24:40Z")
What Obama has done here is unprecedented. I’ve asked for examples of Presidents pursuing deals with other countries that they know would never be ratified. Shouldn’t be hard if this has been done before. Yes, there are a lot of executive agreements. Executive agreements that are at least tacitly supported by Congress. What’s being negotiated now isn’t even supported by the likely Democratic nominee for President. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/146 "2015-03-10T21:31:58Z")
> [@Kyomara](#): > > I > The negotiations in Geneva are not some back-room con job, and the Iranian government are not a bunch of backward hicks who don’t know how US law-making works. Tom Cotton seems to think that the content of his letter is going to blow the minds of the Iranian negotiating team. To assume that they are not aware that enactment of the agreement may depend on the support of the legislative branch, and that the president and the legislature don’t always get along, is pretty insulting. I think the Iranian response to the letter was very appropriate. > > . I just cannot get over the fact that Cotton sent Javad Zarif a copy of the letter in Farsi just in case he couldn’t read English which probably guaranteed a snarky reception. > **[Iran Schools GOP Senators On International Law](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tom-cotton-zarif-letter_n_6835538?cps=gravity_2425_-5182911272868691197)** > > Iran Schools GOP Senators On International Law From Wikipedia, here is brief summary of Zarif’s higher education: _Zarif attended Drew College Preparatory School, a private college-preparatory high school located in San Francisco, California. He went on to study at San Francisco State University, from which he gained a BA in International Relations in 1981 and an MA in the same subject in 1982. Following this, Zarif continued his studies at the Graduate School of International Studies (now named the Josef Korbel School of International Studies) at the University of Denver, from which he obtained a second MA in International Relations in 1984 and this was followed by a PhD in International Law and Policy in 1988.His thesis was entitled: “Self-Defense in International Law and Policy”._ But Cotton made sure to send a copy of the letter in Farsi because the dude’s just a backwater militant terrorist, dontcha know. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/147 "2015-03-10T21:34:00Z")
Let’s keep in mind that when FDR told Stalin that there were strikes going on, Stalin wanted to know if we didn’t have troops available to put the strikes down. Foreigners often do not understand how our system works, and frankly most Americans don’t either. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/148 "2015-03-10T21:49:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What Obama has done here is unprecedented. I’ve asked for examples of Presidents pursuing deals with other countries that they know would never be ratified. . . . League of Nations. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/149 "2015-03-10T21:51:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What Obama has done here is unprecedented. No, that’s just shit you’re saying. > [@](#): > > I’ve asked for examples of Presidents pursuing deals with other countries that they know would never be ratified. Shouldn’t be hard if this has been done before. How is that easy to find? I don’t know what previous presidents “know would never be ratified.” You’re just flailing to try and find a way to justify your pre-determined conclusion. > [@](#): > > Yes, there are a lot of executive agreements. Executive agreements that are at least tacitly supported by Congress. What’s being negotiated now isn’t even supported by the likely Democratic nominee for President. What’s being negotiated is a stop to Iran nuclear development. Everyone supports that. What we have here is a reflexive, “OH MY GOD THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!” that is blindly applied to every action of the administration, conveniently forgetting everything that has come before. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/150 "2015-03-10T22:15:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > League of Nations. Yeah, the end result being that the US didn’t join the League of Nations, regardless of what Wilson agreed to. Kyoto could be another example. Rejected completely by the Senate and renounced by the next administration. Why Obama would expect his agreement to be treated any better, I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/151 "2015-03-10T22:30:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Let’s keep in mind that when FDR told Stalin that there were strikes going on, Stalin wanted to know if we didn’t have troops available to put the strikes down. > > Foreigners often do not understand how our system works, and frankly most Americans don’t either. I don’t think that Joseph Stalin is a particularly timely reference point here. Tom Cotton apparently thought it appropriate to condescend to someone better educated in his OWN COUNTRY. Talk show hosts do more preliminary research than this guy. To be fair though, since it is an open letter, the Farsi version might just have been a means to insure that the Iranian public could read it too. In the words of Peter Venkman, “we can do more damage that way.” ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/152 "2015-03-10T22:35:15Z")
Just wondering how unprecedented this whole thing is. Breitbart (I know, not exactly an unbiased source) is reporting times when Democrats did something similar: > **[7 Times Democrats Advised America's Enemies to Oppose the President](https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2015/03/10/7-times-democrats-advised-americas-enemies-to-oppose-the-president/)** > > On Monday, 47 United States Senators sent an open letter to the Iranian regime warning that any deal cut by President Obama could be revoked by Congress. Just wondering how accurate this is, not submitted as something I’m willing or able to defend! ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/153 "2015-03-10T22:47:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What Obama has done here is unprecedented. I’ve asked for examples of Presidents pursuing deals with other countries that they know would never be ratified. Shouldn’t be hard if this has been done before. I mentioned the Algiers Accorde like 120 posts ago. Maybe you didn’t search that hard. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/154 "2015-03-10T22:51:15Z")
You don’t think Congress supported the Algiers accords? It was negotiated by the Carter administration and assented to by the Reagan administration. It would be quite odd for Congress to oppose that, although I’m open to cites that they did. Iran’s right to enrichment on the other hand is not just opposed by Congress, but also the next President, whoever that is. I’m not sure if the Iranians know that, but they’ll find out. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/155 "2015-03-10T23:08:17Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Just wondering how unprecedented this whole thing is. Breitbart (I know, not exactly an unbiased source) is reporting times when Democrats did something similar: > > [http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/03/10/7-times-democrats-advised-americas-enemies-to-oppose-the-president/](http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/03/10/7-times-democrats-advised-americas-enemies-to-oppose-the-president/) > > Just wondering how accurate this is, not submitted as something I’m willing or able to defend! I have not read your link because I am opposed on principle to click on any Breitbart link. However, Politico also has a bit on it here: [http://www.politico.com/story/2015/03/gop-iran-letter-115943.html](http://www.politico.com/story/2015/03/gop-iran-letter-115943.html) (I assume they will be very similar). I will say it seems Nancy Pelosi crossed the line when she went to Syria and I, for one, would be happy to have seen her prosecuted for it. As for passing the Boland Amendment well, that is congress’ job. They have the power of the purse and they used it. About as American and legal as it gets. The senate rejecting a test ban treaty? That is precisely what the senate is supposed to do (pass or reject a treaty). Not sure why that is even included except to give the sense that there is a lot there when there isn’t Sending troops to Kosovo…well, the fight over when a president can send troops and congress’ ability to stop that is a pretty old one which has never been decided by the courts to my knowledge and differs from a treaty negotiation. Jim Wright in 1987 looks like a violation. In this case though we have 47 senators taking matters into their own hand. Not just one with a wild hair up their ass. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/156 "2015-03-10T23:10:47Z")
How about Roosevelt’s destroyers for bases agreement? Yoo’s think that was less controversial than this matter? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/157 "2015-03-10T23:14:17Z")
No, they should not be prosecuted. The Logan Act came out of the same period as the Alien and Sedition Acts. If it’s ever tested, especially on a free speech issue, it will fail, hard. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/158 "2015-03-10T23:15:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > How about Roosevelt’s destroyers for bases agreement? Yoo’s think that was less controversial than this matter? That’s arguably strictly within the executive’s purview as commander in chief. Lifting sanctions is a Congressional prerogative. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/159 "2015-03-10T23:15:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Let’s keep in mind that when FDR told Stalin that there were strikes going on, Stalin wanted to know if we didn’t have troops available to put the strikes down. > > Foreigners often do not understand how our system works, and frankly most Americans don’t either. Stalin was a dictator and a thug. The people who go and negotiate the treaties are career diplomats and they will be crystal clear about the political process on both sides and acutely aware of government and public sentiments. They spend years (literally) hammering these things out. They can’t not know. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597/160 "2015-03-10T23:26:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > No, they should not be prosecuted. The Logan Act came out of the same period as the Alien and Sedition Acts. If it’s ever tested, especially on a free speech issue, it will fail, hard. What does age have to do with it? Corporate personhood was established as a doctrine in 1886 in the Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad case. Funny thing is the court didn’t even establish that but rather a court reporter did. Fast forward to now and we have Citizens United which affirmed corporate personhood. Old decisions can and do stand and, as far as I know, a law remains a law till replaced or repealed (or if it has a sunset clause). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-house-republicans-be-charged-and-tried-with-violation-of-the-logan-act/714597.md?page=9)