# Should Howard Dean, the DNC chairman, be censured for this statement? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250 "2005-02-15T20:47:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/41 "2005-02-16T19:33:07Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Context. In the presidential campaign, Dean said that guys with Confederate flag bumper stickers on their pickups should support Democrats, not Republicans. In classic left-wing knee-jerkery, he was immediately denounced by every other Democratic candidate, causing Karl Rove to develop a firm erection. What Dean said the other day was, I fear, an awkward way of trying to make amends. I doubt that. Dean was just being honest, as he was with the confederate flag thing. The people he was talking about in the first instance should be voting democrat based on their interests (in his opinion). With regard to the hotel thing. First, he said “people of color”. This doesn’t mean just black people, it means people of color and/or minorities. I would bet the vast majority of hotels in this country are staffed primarily by people of color. So his comment was factually accurate. I don’t see why any black people would be offended considering it was a knock on republicans. Plus, appox. 10% of balck people who vote, vote republican. That is a pretty small. In addition to the fact that most most black people don’t consider black republicans representatives of the black commmunity. With all that said, I think it is safe to say the republicans would have a hard time gathering a large group of black people, who represent the black community, in one room. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/42 "2005-02-16T19:42:44Z")
I’ll break it down even more simply: What if Howard Dean told some really uproarious “stupid negro” jokes to a room with a lot of black Dems – and they roared with laughter and opened their pocketbooks to the DNC? Should the Dems. censure him? Why? He hasn’t offended any Dems., including those he’s talking about? And if I’m not a member of the Dems., what business is it of mine, anyhow, how they police their internal relations. Should my mother stop my brother from calling me insulting nicknames? Not if I don’t mind, and not if he and I consider ourselves boon companions in the struggle against some common enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/43 "2005-02-16T19:55:38Z")
Chairman Dean was making two statements: 1) The GOP doesn’t have any real support amongst minorities. This is an overstatement, certainly; the GOP does have some non-white support. It’s small, and in most communities, it’s much smaller than the Administration would have you believe by ensuring that what minority support they do have is ushered in front of the cameras at every opportunity. 2) That GOP policies are keeping people of color away from the opportunities enjoyed by the white upper middle class. It’s certainly true that most hotel staff in D.C. are of color, and it’s not offensive to say that the reason they’re there instead of in skilled trades or the professions is because to government has failed to help them – in fact, me and 56 million of my friends think that’s true. To the extent there’s servility implicit in the idea of people in the service economy (notice the root words), the statement is a dig at the GOP for _keeping_ people of color in a servile capacity, not at the people for being there. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/44 "2005-02-16T22:36:00Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > I’ll break it down even more simply: > > What if Howard Dean told some really uproarious “stupid negro” jokes to a room with a lot of black Dems – and they roared with laughter and opened their pocketbooks to the DNC? > > Should the Dems. censure him? Why? He hasn’t offended any Dems., including those he’s talking about? And if I’m not a member of the Dems., what business is it of mine, anyhow, how they police their internal relations. > > Should my mother stop my brother from calling me insulting nicknames? Not if I don’t mind, and not if he and I consider ourselves boon companions in the struggle against some common enemy. I disagree with your premise. You are saying it’s OK to offend Republicans as long as you don’t offend Democrats. In today’s media intensive society, there are no private jokes in a large room. What you say becomes a matter of record at the speed of light. follow that through with your analogy. If your brother called you a derogatory name in public it would still be an insult to those unfortunate enough to hear it regardless of how you felt. At best it is rude behavior. Howard Dean’s inability to speak in politically correct terms makes him the first DNC Chairman to enjoy the support of both parties. He is a GOP dream-come-true. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/45 "2005-02-16T22:57:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I disagree with your premise. You are saying it’s OK to offend Republicans as long as you don’t offend Democrats. In today’s media intensive society, there are no private jokes in a large room. What you say becomes a matter of record at the speed of light. > > follow that through with your analogy. If your brother called you a derogatory name in public it would still be an insult to those unfortunate enough to hear it regardless of how you felt. At best it is rude behavior. > > Howard Dean’s inability to speak in politically correct terms makes him the first DNC Chairman to enjoy the support of both parties. He is a GOP dream-come-true. Except that by definition, the vast majority of republicans won’t ever vote for democrats. Doesn’t matter if becomes public. For every person in the middle that may be turned off by his tone, there is someone else in the middle who takes notice of the lack of minority support the republicans have. It’s pretty sad when you can’t even make a joke anymore. Plus, I doubt he’s the GOP’s dream, because while most people know who Howard Dean is, very few know who runs the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/46 "2005-02-16T23:04:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Howard Dean’s inability to speak in politically correct terms makes him the first DNC Chairman to enjoy the support of both parties. He is a GOP dream-come-true. Blah blah blah. That’s something people say about everybody, so it’s lost all meaning. I’m being charitable and assuming it used to mean something. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/47 "2005-02-16T23:10:15Z")
:rolleyes: Jeez, why is this non-issue brainfart of a thread still going on? For that matter, why was it even started, **stpauler?** :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/48 "2005-02-16T23:22:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: Jeez, why is this non-issue brainfart of a thread still going on? For that matter, why was it even started, **stpauler?** :dubious: _You_, of all people, are going to complain about ‘non-issue brainfart of a thread’? What, if it doesn’t have to do with some goofy alternative voting system or how to better turn American into worker’s paradise, it doesn’t deserve to grace GD? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/49 "2005-02-16T23:26:04Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > _You_, of all people, are going to complain about ‘non-issue brainfart of a thread’? What, if it doesn’t have to do with some goofy alternative voting system or how to better turn American into worker’s paradise, it doesn’t deserve to grace GD? :dubious: Those are far more relevant issues than Howard Dean saying something publicly that Pubs might have a chance to misrepresent as racially insensitive. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/50 "2005-02-16T23:37:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: Jeez, why is this non-issue brainfart of a thread still going on? For that matter, why was it even started, **stpauler?** :dubious: You don’t like the thread? Don’t open it up. You don’t want the thread to keep going? Then don’t post 4 times in it. I’m sorry it doesn’t lend itself to the highbrow power of [“Ann Coulter is a drag queen!”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=302642) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/51 "2005-02-17T00:39:21Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Plus, I doubt he’s the GOP’s dream, because while most people know who Howard Dean is, very few know who runs the GOP. Karl Rove is hardly living in obscurity. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/52 "2005-02-17T00:40:49Z")
Ramesh Ponnuru seems to agree that this latest outrage is unwarranted: “Give me a break. Dean is saying, hyperbolically, that there aren’t many blacks or other nonwhites in the Republican party. He’s right. I’ve been to many, many Republican dinners where most nonwhites present have been serving the food. (Or giving the keynote.) If Republicans are bothered when people make that observation, they should try to make it less true.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/53 "2005-02-17T01:32:49Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Except that by definition, the vast majority of republicans won’t ever vote for democrats. Doesn’t matter if becomes public. For every person in the middle that may be turned off by his tone, there is someone else in the middle who takes notice of the lack of minority support the republicans have. It’s pretty sad when you can’t even make a joke anymore. Soooo… it’s OK to insult someone if they aren’t in your party because what? Help me out here, I’m not getting it. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Plus, I doubt he’s the GOP’s dream, because while most people know who Howard Dean is, very few know who runs the GOP. You’re right, he’s the guy who lost to the guy who lost to the guy who’s President. And as the official fund raiser for the next election he’s managed to insulted potential crossover voters twice in his first week on the job. Go John go. It’s less money the GOP has to spend to keep it’s voters. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/54 "2005-02-17T01:37:07Z")
It’s just silly making a stink about this. If you want to bash Dean for something, how about this, from the [Boston Globe:](http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/02/03/dean_for_dnc_chairman_yeeaarrgghh/) > [@](#): > > Speaking to a DNC forum in New York over the weekend, Dean indulged once again in some of the undisguised loathing of the GOP that was such a hallmark of Democratic Party activism last year. “I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for,” he told the audience, “but I admire their discipline and their organization.” “I \*\*\*hate \*\*\* the Republicans…” WTF??? ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/55 "2005-02-17T01:46:55Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Plus, I doubt he’s the GOP’s dream, because while most people know who Howard Dean is, very few know who runs the GOP. I think that has more to do with two facts: First, we’ve got a Republican President. Thus, no matter who is sitting in the party chairmanship, the President runs the party. I believe the same could be said when Clinton was in office. Second, [Ken Mehlman](http://www.gop.com/GOPDirectory/PartyLeaders.aspx) seems to have a much more subdued, “behind the scenes” approach to his job. While he pops up occasionally as a talking head, he doesn’t tend to say anything particularly controversial or noteworthy. Thus, he doesn’t make headlines on his own; people don’t notice him. I’m not saying this is either better or worse, just different. As for the OP, I think it was an unfortunate way to make a joke, since it appeared to imply that black Republicans are akin to “servants,” and people occupying the lower level jobs of washing dishes and cleaning rooms are predominantly black. However, I don’t think the comment was offensive, largely because I don’t think that the comment was meant in an offensive manner. I’ll leave it up to the black community whether such a comment was offensive or not. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/56 "2005-02-17T03:08:23Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Karl Rove is hardly living in obscurity. 😃 Ken Mehlman has served as Chairman of the Republican National Committee since January 2005. Karl Rove is not the chairman. He may have influenced the party direction by proxy, but he is not the chairman. > [@Magiver](#): > > Soooo… it’s OK to insult someone if they aren’t in your party because what? Help me out here, I’m not getting it. It’s OK because it won’t lose any democrat any votes. > [@Magiver](#): > > You’re right, he’s the guy who lost to the guy who lost to the guy who’s President. And as the official fund raiser for the next election he’s managed to insulted potential crossover voters twice in his first week on the job. Go John go. It’s less money the GOP has to spend to keep it’s voters. He was also the guy who nobody had ever heard of months before the primary, yet he somehow raised staggering amounts of money using methods most dems never thought of. Sure he lost. Everyone has lost at some point, but he is still a major player in politics and a household name. I can’t say the same for Ken Mehlman. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/57 "2005-02-17T03:14:02Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > I think that has more to do with two facts: > > First, we’ve got a Republican President. Thus, no matter who is sitting in the party chairmanship, the President runs the party. I believe the same could be said when Clinton was in office. > > Second, [Ken Mehlman](http://www.gop.com/GOPDirectory/PartyLeaders.aspx) seems to have a much more subdued, “behind the scenes” approach to his job. While he pops up occasionally as a talking head, he doesn’t tend to say anything particularly controversial or noteworthy. Thus, he doesn’t make headlines on his own; people don’t notice him. > > I’m not saying this is either better or worse, just different. > > As for the OP, I think it was an unfortunate way to make a joke, since it appeared to imply that black Republicans are akin to “servants,” and people occupying the lower level jobs of washing dishes and cleaning rooms are predominantly black. However, I don’t think the comment was offensive, largely because I don’t think that the comment was meant in an offensive manner. I’ll leave it up to the black community whether such a comment was offensive or not. True, but I think most realize that Kerry’s poor articulation is one reason he lost the election. Howard Dean does not have that problem, nor does he have a shortage of people who want to listen to his opinions. The more he’s on TV telling everyone about how great the dems are doing, the better it is. He’s not a complete jackass. If someone has to tell him to tone it down, he will. I doubt any republican in power really thinks Dean is going disgrace the party and constantly offend people to the point where they would consider him a dream come true. Besides his job is mostly about raising money, and he has proven he can do that very well. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/58 "2005-02-17T07:08:21Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > “I \*\*\*hate \*\*\* the Republicans…” WTF??? Seems like a proper response to Pure Evil™, if ya asks me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/59 "2005-02-17T14:07:44Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > “I \*\*\*hate \*\*\* the Republicans…” WTF??? You understand how cheerleading works, don’t you? It’s the core of the job. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250/60 "2005-02-17T16:59:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Speaking to a DNC forum in New York over the weekend, Dean indulged once again in some of the undisguised loathing of the GOP that was such a hallmark of Democratic Party activism last year. “I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for,” he told the audience, “but I admire their discipline and their organization.” Why do I get the feeling this is yet another outright fabrication or falsified half-quote by the conservative spin machine? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-howard-dean-the-dnc-chairman-be-censured-for-this-statement/290250.md?page=4)