# Should I accept defeat? (daughter's school placement)long **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 25, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084 "2011-08-25T21:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/41 "2011-08-26T01:38:01Z")
> [@Sam\_I\_Am](#): > > I find it very hard to believe that the application process involves sending letters of acceptance to students who won’t then be placed in the program. What would be the purpose of that? Find it hard to believe all you want, but that’s the way it works. I just went through it. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/42 "2011-08-26T01:40:59Z")
Just to clear up muddy waters: Student Placement sent the placement letter. The letter includes the words “Congratulations on your child’s placement at School of the Arts” SOTA’s Website didn’t have her number listed as accepted on their website. SOTA’s VP told me to check to see if my name is listed for SOTA with SP. I called SP and WASN’T on the list. I called SOTA’s VP and was told, “I have no information for you. Only SP can place your child. You must call them” I called SP and was told to fax in my placement letter. I faxed that in and SP emailed me, ensuring me that my daughter was placed BACK on the SOTA list. I checked yesterday with SOTA to be sure she was on their list. I was told to contact SP. I did. I was told she is on the list. Today I got a phone call from SP (secretary. NOT the superintendant I had talked to and gotten the email from) telling me she is NOT on the list. I called SOTA and the VP lied and said, “Yeah, I told you when you called at the beginning of the summer that her scores didn’t qualify her.” ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/43 "2011-08-26T01:51:19Z")
That sucks. Good luck. I think(hope) your questions are going to be answered when you finally talk to the superintendent. Why the hell he would send you an email confirming her placement if it wasn’t true? Hopefully things can be rectified and she can be in the school. If not, it will be nice to know where the mistake happened, at the very least. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/44 "2011-08-26T01:53:04Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The difference between a kid that ends up reaching the top of the stars and one who ends up falling through the cracks often boils down to how much a pain in the ass a mother is willing to be to some school administrators. As a school administrator myself I’m going to take exception to this. There’s no need to be a pain in the ass, and I assure you there are better communication choices to make if you want assistance. If someone has what you want, asking for help is always more effective than demanding what you think you deserve. What you can do now is ask for help figuring out where the error occurred. If you try framing it that way, you might be more successful than if you go in guns blazing in the name of your kid’s entire educational future. Start with the secretary who gave you the bad news. Let her know that you and your daughter are ready to accept the decision of the placement office, but could she help you both figure out what happened so it can be avoided in the future? Was it an admin snafu? An issue of low scores? A misunderstanding about the acceptance/placement process? Then find out when the next auditions will be held and sign up for them. Surely this isn’t the only chance she has to attend this school. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/45 "2011-08-26T02:18:57Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > If someone has what you want, asking for help is always more effective than demanding what you think you deserve. And if asking for help (as Nzinga did) is completely ineffective, the next step is… what, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/46 "2011-08-26T02:47:33Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > And if asking for help (as Nzinga did) is completely ineffective, the next step is… what, exactly? You ask again, or you ask a different person, or you ask a different way. Honestly, it always surprises me when people try to power their way through a bureaucracy. That just never works, especially when you’re asking them to admit a mistake and explain how it happened. It’s understandable to be angry or frustrated, but being a pain in the ass is never the best option. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/47 "2011-08-26T03:01:53Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Just to clear up muddy waters: > Student Placement sent the placement letter. The letter includes the words “Congratulations on your child’s placement at School of the Arts” > > SOTA’s Website didn’t have her number listed as accepted on their website. > > SOTA’s VP told me to check to see if my name is listed for SOTA with SP. > > I called SP and WASN’T on the list. > > I called SOTA’s VP and was told, “I have no information for you. Only SP can place your child. You must call them” > > I called SP and was told to fax in my placement letter. > > I faxed that in and SP emailed me, ensuring me that my daughter was placed BACK on the SOTA list. > > I checked yesterday with SOTA to be sure she was on their list. I was told to contact SP. > > I did. I was told she is on the list. > > Today I got a phone call from SP (secretary. NOT the superintendant I had talked to and gotten the email from) telling me she is NOT on the list. > > I called SOTA and the VP lied and said, “Yeah, I told you when you called at the beginning of the summer that her scores didn’t qualify her.” I am going to recommend a slightly different approach - arrange a meeting with the SP superintendent you spoke to, bring your letter and when you meet with him/her hand them the letter and say, “I was a little confused since this letter says that she got in, but I understand she did not test high enough to get in? Can you give us some feedback on things she can work on, since I am sure neither one of us wants her to slip between the cracks…?” Give them a chance to digest it and come up with something…then blaze at them if you have to… Sometimes policy-keepers are idiots and they make mistakes and need a chance to dig out of them and save face…let them try that first. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/48 "2011-08-26T06:08:37Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > You ask again, or you ask a different person, or you ask a different way. Honestly, it always surprises me when people try to power their way through a bureaucracy. That just never works, especially when you’re asking them to admit a mistake and explain how it happened. > > It’s understandable to be angry or frustrated, but being a pain in the ass is never the best option. I’ve worked in educational bureaucracies. It absolutely can work. You simply don’t try to steam roll one person. Bureaucrats do not like public noise. You just make sure you document every single communication. They’ve already admitted the mistake and that’s HUGE progress. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/49 "2011-08-26T06:46:51Z")
**Nzinga** , let’s assume that the mistake was in sending the letter. When you ask for the scores, also make sure that you understand how are they generated, what factors into them. That gives you information on how to better prepare for next year. **Dio** , let’s assume that the letter was correct and the mistake happened later. The mistake itself wouldn’t be malicious, just the product of a distraction. The VP using “your daughter didn’t pass” as a CYA wouldn’t be malicious - with many parents, it would work just fine, so it wouldn’t even be a bad strategy. I can see the mistake having happened at either point and hope that clarity and a satisfactory plan forward can be achieved soon (and sorry about the business-speak, apparently my brain is already geared up for the meetings I’ve got later today). ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/50 "2011-08-26T14:24:13Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > As a school administrator myself I’m going to take exception to this. There’s no need to be a pain in the ass, and I assure you there are better communication choices to make if you want assistance. I didn’t say a parent _has_ to be a pain in the ass to get things done. But parents that are meek, mild, and afraid of making waves due to some perception that questioning an official constitutes being a “pain in the ass” aren’t going to be as effective at advocating for their kids as parents that are assertive, direct, and unconcerned about making waves. Please note that **Nzinga** has already been a “pain in the ass” to the SOTA VP, who got all defensive simply because she pointed out a discrepancy between what was been said and what has happened. Should she quit at this point just because the guy is annoyed with her? No. If anything, she needs to be even _more_ willing to press the issue, thereby becoming even _more_ of a pain in the ass. The VP has not resolved her questions satisfactorially and her kid’s education is at stake. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/51 "2011-08-26T15:47:59Z")
update: 1. I left a voicemail for SOTA’s VP. I asked for the test scores and criteria. My daughter is awkward and quiet. It is possible that there are things in the audition process that she didn’t execute well (again, her actual writing portfolio is solid. No question.) If I know the process for scoring, I may be able to better prepare her for next year. 2. The SP superintendant who transferred my daughter back in to SOTA and emailed me…he’s no longer in that position! The secretary told me that when I called this morning. She took my name for his replacement to call me. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/52 "2011-08-26T15:57:51Z")
The main thing that bothers me about this situation is the letter. It is very unkind to send a letter of acceptance, getting your daughter all excited and hopeful, then saying “oops, we made a mistake”. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/53 "2011-08-26T16:43:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What makes you think that remedy is justified by test scores? What makes you think anything needs to be remedied at all? I have the evidence of the letter. It’s possible that the letter was sent in error, but against that, I have the evidence of her conversation and emails with “Brian”, who confirmed that Nzinga’s Daughter belonged in SOTA and put her there himself. If the letter was in error, Brian would have seen that. Also from Brian, we have evidence that something hinky was going on with Nizinga’s Daughter’s placement, since she’d originally been placed in SOTA and then removed. On the other hand, the only evidence we have that the scores were too low is the testimony of the VP, who is clearly an asshole and, not incidentally, actively trying to discourage Nzinga from pursuing this. It’s that last part that makes me think this is entirely worth pursuing. ETA: > [@Nzinga](#): > > 1. The SP superintendant who transferred my daughter back in to SOTA and emailed me…he’s no longer in that position! The secretary told me that when I called this morning. She took my name for his replacement to call me. Curious … Have you contacted the Principal? I would try emailing him, CC’ing the VP, and alerting him to the confusion. Maybe he has some insight here. Maybe not. But it indicates to the VP that you’re not just taking his word on things, here. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/54 "2011-08-26T17:58:26Z")
Merneith (did I ever tell you how much I love your username?) I didn’t call the Principal yet. I was holding her for a last gasp effort. But, guys, guess what!? New update: I contacted SP and the secretary told me that some staff has looked at the email the superintendant sent me and they all feel bad that this is happening, including the super. They said I can choose ANY other school in the district and they will put her in. She also gave me the number to the Chief of staff at SP and told me to call her and see if she can help me. I called the number and left a message for her. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/55 "2011-08-26T18:26:06Z")
Are there any good schools that you like? I mean, is this really just a consolation prize, or is it more like “HOLY CRAP, choice of schools WOO-HOO!”? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/56 "2011-08-26T18:27:49Z")
Making progress. Just a friendly reminder to keep all interactions as civil and professional as possible. You can always get a lawyer or go full mental next week, but no need to start with that as the professional approach usually works better. The Chief of Staff at SP may even be able to help your daughter get into her choice. And if you have to re-apply next year, this is the time to really understand the process and hope that someone will put in a friendly word or note to help grease the skids. You want to avoid the chance of a backlash. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/57 "2011-08-26T18:30:45Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > I contacted SP and the secretary told me that some staff has looked at the email the superintendant sent me and they all feel bad that this is happening, including the super. They said I can choose ANY other school in the district and they will put her in. That’s a really bizarre “solution” to the problem. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/58 "2011-08-26T18:32:21Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > I contacted SP and the secretary told me that some staff has looked at the email the superintendant sent me and they all feel bad that this is happening, including the super. **They said I can choose ANY other school in the district and they will put her in.** If they have this kind of power, seems like it should be simple enough for them to…I dunno…put her in SOTA like they said they would from the start. I mean, seriously, any OTHER school? Surely SOTA isn’t the only one that is competitive, so what allows them the freedom place her anywhere but, strangely enough, the one school that she’s tried to get into? Some funny business is going on here. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/59 "2011-08-26T18:36:40Z")
MsWhatsit, the Rochester city school district is NOTORIOUSLY jacked up. So yeah, consolation prize. I am going to spend the weekend doing some verrry serious research though! ETA: Yeah, I have a feeling that the VP at SOTA is stonewalling…he is saying to them that she is NOT welcome there anymore. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084/60 "2011-08-26T18:46:51Z")
Hm. I am thinking more and more that just continuing to attempt to go over this dude’s head is maybe the way to go. I feel like you’re seeing some kind of progress here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-accept-defeat-daughters-school-placement-long/594084.md?page=4)