# Should I be outraged by "Russian hacking"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2016, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765 "2016-12-15T13:06:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/41 "2016-12-15T17:50:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t think it’s out of the question that Hilary Clinton ordered the death of Vince Foster. > > But that’s not the correct standard upon which to base such a comment. The correct standard: since there is no credible evidence that such a thing happened, I reject it as completely unproven and lacking foundation for discussion. > > Do you agree? The consensus data coming from the intelligence community (subject to change as we learn more, obviously) is that the Russians hacked both the DNC and RNC, but only released the DNC. It’s rather unlikely that they simply forgot to open the files they got from the RNC and then threw away the single memory stick that it was on. It’s more likely that they still have this data. Do you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/42 "2016-12-15T18:59:20Z")
And in the latest news, CIA has time to leak things to WaPo - but [refuses to brief Congress](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4037220/CIA-officials-REFUSE-brief-Congress-truth-Russian-hacking-claims-rebuked-GOP-congressman-disgraceful-move.html) on its allegations until its review is complete “in the coming weeks”. Rep. Peter King: “…it’s almost as if people in the intelligence community are carrying out a disinformation campaign against the president-elect of the United States.” ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/43 "2016-12-15T19:15:10Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > 20 years ago, if I had been told that the Russians are going to hack into the databases of both of the political parties and release the data from one of the political parties, holding on to the data from the other party for a rainy day, AND that the candidate from the second political party would be overtly encouraging the Russians to do so, that would be outrageous. Add to that that there is universal agreement in the intelligence community that the Russians were behind the data breach which is being denied by the second candidate, who is now apparently openly hostile to the American intelligence community, and choosing to side with the Russians. If I had then been told that the second candidate would win, and start to assemble a pro-Russian cabinet (again, with the shadow of the information being held back), I would start to consider the word “treason”. > > Wouldn’t matter which party was which. I agree with this. Certainly times have changed (good-bye Cold War), but it is a stunning reversal of long-standing political realities in this country. NBC news has some interesting things to say about what Russia did and who was involved. Putin specifically directed the hacking and how the materials were used. He had clear cut aims, too. > [@](#): > > Putin’s objectives were multifaceted, a high-level intelligence source told NBC News. What began as a “vendetta” against Hillary Clinton morphed into an effort to show corruption in American politics and to “split off key American allies by creating the image that [other countries] couldn’t depend on the U.S. to be a credible global leader anymore,” the official said. These goals seem fully in line with Russia’s activities in Europe for the last decade or so. I cannot understand why anyone would NOT be concerned about what happened. [NBC news article](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-officials-putin-personally-involved-u-s-election-hack-n696146) Now we have a President-elect who is packing his cabinet and his advisors with Russian sympathizers. We know that Trump himself has business ties to Russia. What about this situation seems acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/44 "2016-12-15T20:28:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, that one pretty much is out of the question, given that Trump has already said that he’ll give them everything they want. He’s not even going to be giving any orders for them to take. What has Donald Trump already said he will give them? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/45 "2016-12-15T20:51:28Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What has Donald Trump already said he will give them? Crimea and sanctions relief. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/46 "2016-12-15T21:11:23Z")
It’s payback for Ukraine and, [as such, pretty amusing to the bystander.](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957) I kind of like Putin’s sense of humour as well, he doesn’t even care who knows or how riled they get now … oh how the Law of Unintended Consequences can bite you in the arse. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/47 "2016-12-16T15:47:32Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Crimea and sanctions relief. Trump has not promised to do anything. All he said was that he would “take a look” which is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/48 "2016-12-16T17:29:01Z")
> [@Walmarticus](#): > > Russia’s behavior is super bad but I can’t be all that outraged over Russia being Russia because I only have so much outrage to go around. Trump’s reaction is what makes my skin crawl. I’d hope that even a partisan would offer a canned ‘well these allegations are very disconcerting and every effort should be made to protect the integrity of our democracy but basically let’s all move on’ response. Bingo. Trump won, that’s that. The Russians fucked with us, no surprise there and we should take appropriate action. Fine. But the following things scare the shit out of me: -Trump is dismissing it out of hand -Trump clearly has an affinity for Putin, a scumbag who probably crushes testicles for fun -Many of Trump’s statements about things like NATO indicate a possible sidling up to Russia -There are enough connections between Trump’s team and the Russians to make me wonder about a quid pro quo I completely recognize that the above doesn’t amount to proof of anything, but when something smells bad we investigate. Or we should. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/49 "2016-12-16T18:31:39Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > The President elect asked a hostile foreign power to commit espionage on his behalf. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/50 "2016-12-16T18:34:30Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Cite? [Trump urges Russia to hack Clinton’s email](http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/trump-putin-no-relationship-226282) > [@](#): > > Donald Trump invited Russia to hack Hillary Clinton’s emails on Wednesday, asking one of America’s longstanding geopolitical adversaries to find “the 30,000 emails that are missing” from the personal server she used during her time as secretary of state. > > “I will tell you this, Russia: If you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” the Republican nominee said at a news conference in Florida. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.” ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/51 "2016-12-16T18:49:07Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Trump urges Russia to hack Clinton’s email](http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/trump-putin-no-relationship-226282) Forget it. You’ll hear how this was a joke. Or that because he asked them to hack Clinton’s email and not Podesta’s email, this is totally different. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/52 "2016-12-16T18:52:08Z")
> [@Smitty](#): > > Your first statement has not been proven. The FBI disputes that the Russians were the hackers, and Wikileaks has flat out stated that it was a DNC insider who provided the emails. The only “evidence” that the Russians are involved is an anonymous source quoting an unproven investigation to media that have been massively biased. Sorry, but that doesn’t fly. This is incorrect. The FBI does not dispute that Russia did the hacking, they just disagree with CIA on the intentions. The FBI claims it was merely to sow discord, while the CIA says it was that plus to help Trump. It actually is mostly a non-story in terms of the disagreement between the two, but the media is playing it up as if it is a large difference. By the way, the CIA is way better at attribution and developing intelligence reports since that is their core mission. The FBI wouldn’t have nearly as much access to intelligence that helps with the attribution of an event like this. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/53 "2016-12-16T18:56:54Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The consensus data coming from the intelligence community (subject to change as we learn more, obviously) is that the Russians hacked both the DNC and RNC, but only released the DNC. It’s rather unlikely that they simply forgot to open the files they got from the RNC and then threw away the single memory stick that it was on. It’s more likely that they still have this data. > > Do you agree? “Consensus data”? Last I heard it was one anonymous source that told the NYT the RNC got hacked (which the RNC disputes). Has there been more evidence? Some sort of a consensus report? Anything like that? When the DNC got hacked, they got phone calls from the FBI about it. Did the FBI call the RNC to warn them they had been hacked too? ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/54 "2016-12-16T19:04:15Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > But the liberal outrage isn’t being directed at Trump. > People are screaming about the Russians… And they’re doing it with overboard fearmonging. Almost as bad as the early 1950’s, when the Russians had beaten us in the space race with Sputnik, and our entire way of life was supposedly in danger. > “Help!!!” they scream–our democratic elections have been ruined!!! Run for the hills!!! > > Today’s New York Times has a front page article entitled: > Yes, there was cyber espionage…But ,duh, governments do this to each other every day. And there are repercussions all the time. It’s not as if governments ignore it when they find out they’ve been the subject of espionage, so I’m not sure what your point is here. > [@](#): > > What I don’t understand is the why they sub-title the article “disrupt” the presidential race. > That’s just bad journalism…Fox News-level bad. > > There was ZERO disruption. > There was some information leaked…but, duh, wikileaks does this every day. Helll, the NY Times itself does this every day–that’s the job of good reporters. ( Remember Woodward and Bernstein?\*) So the targeted release of information to try and make mountains out of molehills for Clinton while ignoring Trump didn’t disrupt anything? The [waves of fake news](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/russian-propaganda-effort-helped-spread-fake-news-during-election-experts-say/2016/11/24/793903b6-8a40-4ca9-b712-716af66098fe_story.html) didn’t change anything? Clinton’s emails were front page news precisely because the Russians stole DNC and Podesta emails, then released them to Wikileaks at opportune moments. The regular news fell down here too by falling for it. Even the NYTimes [says,](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/us/politics/russia-hack-election-dnc.html) “Every major publication, including The Times, published multiple stories citing the D.N.C. and Podesta emails posted by WikiLeaks, becoming a de facto instrument of Russian intelligence.” > [@](#): > > I’m not outraged by the Russian hackery—I’m outraged by the fact that the Democratic party thinks it is a private club that has the right to keep secrets from the public. They are a private club that has the right to keep secrets, as is the Republican party last I checked. > [@](#): > > And I’m also worried by the stupidity of the Democratic party. These are the would-be leaders of our country --I want to believe that they are intelligent. It’s bad enough that they have so much stuff they want to hide from us, the public. But if you want to keep stuff confidential–don’t leave a paper trail that’s easy to follow. And don’t use unsecured computers. No amount of intelligence makes computers unhackable, especially to a nation state. There was not a single thing revealed in the emails that is actually problematic, so I’m not sure what you’re referring to. Could you give an example of something they wanted to hide? Even if so, isn’t that their right? Should we be calling for Russia to hack Trump’s tax returns? (The answer is no. He should release them, but we shouldn’t be calling for a foreign power to do it.) My biggest concern here is that Russia conducted this operation and Trump is well on his way to thanking them for it. As Russia gets more and more aggressive both in the digital and physical worlds, our PEOTUS is apparently on their side over the side of the country he is supposed to be representing. It’s apparent in his words and his actions of appointing a pro-Russia cabinet. This won’t make our relations better with Russia. It will make money for Trump and his compatriots like the Exxon CEO while hurting the USA in favor of Russian interests. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/55 "2016-12-16T19:46:47Z")
> [@theR](#): > > This is incorrect. The FBI does not dispute that Russia did the hacking, they just disagree with CIA on the intentions. The FBI claims it was merely to sow discord, while the CIA says it was that plus to help Trump. It actually is mostly a non-story in terms of the disagreement between the two, but the media is playing it up as if it is a large difference. It is now being reported on the Washington Post that the FBI now agrees with the CIA assessment that the hacking was to help Trump. So much for that line of conservative denial. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/56 "2016-12-16T20:06:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It is now being reported on the Washington Post that the FBI now agrees with the CIA assessment that the hacking was to help Trump. > > So much for that line of conservative denial. Not to rain on your parade, but the Washington Post reported that some unnamed sources say that the CIA Director wrote a memo to CIA employees that said: > [@](#): > > Earlier this week, I met separately with (Director) FBI James Comey and DNI Jim Clapper, and there is strong consensus among us on the scope, nature, and intent of Russian interference in our presidential election Isn’t it just as likely that the CIA has been swung over to the FBI perspective? All we supposedly know is that “there is strong consensus among us on the … intent of Russian interference in our presidential election”. He didn’t say, ‘The FBI believes me now’. He said ‘we agree’. Why couldn’t that agreement be a consensus on the FBI’s original position? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/57 "2016-12-16T20:54:39Z")
If you read further down the story, an official is quoted as saying that there was never the discrepancy that was represented in the press. Do you assume this means that the CIA didn’t actually assess that Putin was trying to swing the election a certain way? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/58 "2016-12-16T22:00:30Z")
So the basis of this accusation is third-hand information, and two of the three people being cited are James Clapper, who spied on the American people and lied about it, and John Brennan, who assassinated people in countries with which we are not at war and lied about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/59 "2016-12-16T23:41:54Z")
And on the other side we have Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. You’re throwing your lot with that side, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765/60 "2016-12-17T08:42:48Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And on the other side we have Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. You’re throwing your lot with that side, eh? You clearly have not a fucking clue what you’re talking about. Your side’s argument is that we should trust the mainstream media citing anonymous people citing Brennan, Clapper and Comey. My side’s argument is that we should trust Wikileaks citing _Hillary Clinton and the DNC_. These are not Trump’s words that damn Clinton, they are Clinton’s; her own demands for a no-fly zone over Syria and her own secret admission that she knows exactly what a no-fly zone would actually entail. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-be-outraged-by-russian-hacking/774765.md?page=4)