# Should I fire this one or what?? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 5, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689 "2005-11-05T20:15:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/21 "2005-11-07T01:08:50Z")
Your main liability seems to be your company potentially having an increase in unemployment costs b/c she may file a claim. Seems like a risk worth taking weighed against a risk of lowered productivity, potential for theft. Active drug use is not a protected disability. I am an HR person, and in an at will situation I don’t see much risk here if you let her go. Taking employees’ personal situations into account in situations like these often causes more harm than good. That is why HR folks generally have our hearts surgically removed… Sit down with a calendar, write down all the attendance issues you’ve had, with dates. Write down any other performance issues you remember, with dates. Doing your documentation as it happens is the best way, but it’s not the only way. If you have previously offered severance to similarly situated employees, do it, but otherwise it doesn’t seem necessary. We’re talking 5 only months’ tenure here, not years. Conduct the termination respectfully. A book that you might find helpful is \*The Hiring and Firing Answer Book \* by Paul Falcone. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/22 "2005-11-07T05:00:02Z")
> [@TellMeI'mNotCrazy](#): > > I admire you for even questioning whether or not she should go. So she’s a single mother - that makes it an even more important responsibility - on _her_ part - to be able to maintain a professional work ethic. Honestly, while I can’t fault you for wanting to be nice to her, you can’t let her perform like that simply because she’s a single mother. Especially since it isn’t fair to your other employees who do work hard without needing to be told to. > \ I agree with this 100%. She is responsible for looking after her kids, not you. You are responsible for providing a safe, ethical workplace, and that includes making sure that one employee is not favoured over another because of her personal life. I hate to hear about someone taking advantage of a nice, relaxed workplace (and a nice, relaxed boss), but people like her are the reason that employers have employee handbooks, rules, scheduled breaks, monitoring, etc. Can her asap. She obviously doesn’t appreciate the good thing she has, and I would be very surprised if the other employees aren’t resenting her. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/23 "2005-11-07T08:15:46Z")
If she’s not gone, do it already. You’ve already tried too many times and whatever problems she had, let her have them on her own time. Think of the hard workers you have. Everyone is watching you to see how much you let someone slack off. ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/24 "2005-11-07T18:43:43Z")
> [@bubba jr](#): > > As far as 6 weeks, I don’t know, its wierd, at first when she started getting a bit pissy and run down looking, her kids were sick, and she was sick, so I didn’t think much of it, doctor visits, puking, whatnot, made sense. Then it went from her being sick to it was her sinuses, that was her reason for being cranky, yes I tried talking to her, but her responses have become only a few words and now I would consider a conversation two sentences. After the sinus thing cleared up, now shes just “not feeling good”, I understand not feeling good, but it isn’t always accompanied with a piss poor attitude. The other day it was “I’m not in a good mood”. > > To me it smells of the beginning of a rapidly increasing downward spiral due to some sort of powdered substance. Well I wouldn’t automatically put it down to a drug problem or a medical condition. I’ve been in a situation where I’ve had some personal problems and at first everyone was really understanding and helpful, but then things drag on and you get dragged down and you don’t have the energy to work as hard as in the past. Then of course you know your boss is unhappy and you know that they’re getting closer and closer to firing you. So everyday you go to work expecting the hammer to fall and it’s hard to want to be friendly and talk to other people when you think they all know you’re going to be fired. Then you decide, well nothing I do matters now, so you just do whatever you want - maybe subconciously to push the boss to go ahead and get it over with. So maybe what 'm trying to say is - write up your manual (if you haven’t already), sit down in private with her and talk about her beginning accomplishments and then detail her recent transgressions. Tell her you still value her as an employee -that she’s made a great contribution to your staff and that you’d hate to see her go under these circumstances. Lay out the new discpline guidelines and give her whatever level she’s reached. At worst you’ll still be firing her in a couple weeks, at best she’ll see that everyone doesn’t dislike her and she’ll take the chance to turn around her behavior. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/25 "2005-11-07T19:25:18Z")
Odd that you are having this problem with an employee, and others have said they have experienced it too. My small (3 people) company had a guy like TG and we finally fired him in July. Just like her, he was a good worker, good learner, then started missing more days (but with “good excuse”), then started just being stupid and then missed some days w/o excuse. My partners and I decided we really weren’t getting our $9/hr worth out of him and being ignorant of any hiring/firing laws in Ohio (which isn’t an at-will state anyway I guess) we decided to fire him. Luckilly for us (but not for him) shortly after we decided this he called me from jail to explain why he hadn’t been in for 2 days. So it was an easy transition into conversation about how and why he was being let go. Unfortunately I don’t have anything helpful to add here - just very interesting that there’s more Mike The Phone Monkeys out there. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/26 "2005-11-07T19:31:40Z")
Sit down with her. Tell her how well she’s done when she started out. Explain the problems you’ve had with her behavior of late. Ask her why it has happened. Tell her you can’t allow her to continue to screw up things at work since you’re such a small company, everybody counts. Then give her a fixed amount of time – a week or two – to change her behavior. If she can’t or won’t change for the better, you have at least tried to avoid firing her. It is rough – our lack of a social safety net puts the more humane employers at a disadvantage compared with the scum. ---
**Author:** ![Tiggrkitty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tiggrkitty/32/17966_2.png) [@Tiggrkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tiggrkitty)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/27 "2005-11-07T22:16:25Z")
Have you talked to the owner about a drug free environment whereby the employees can be randomly tested for drug abuse? It might help going forward when you suspect problems like this. Our company requires a clean drug test prior to hiring, after that, if a manager suspects abuse, they can contact HR for a drug screen that day. I agree with the others. As a manager, document EVERYTHING, leave nothing unanswered. Make sure that the employee signs each write up, or acknowledges each verbal warning. It really is your only protection against a possible wrongful termination (yeah I know at will, but you can still get sued) or harassment lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/28 "2005-11-07T22:21:49Z")
> [@Tiggrkitty](#): > > Have you talked to the owner about a drug free environment whereby the employees can be randomly tested for drug abuse? It might help going forward when you suspect problems like this. Our company requires a clean drug test prior to hiring, after that, if a manager suspects abuse, they can contact HR for a drug screen that day. Yeah, that’s great. Insult everybody’s dignity because one person can’t get their crap in order. Fire the slacker and don’t look back. ---
**Author:** ![Tiggrkitty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tiggrkitty/32/17966_2.png) [@Tiggrkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tiggrkitty)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/29 "2005-11-07T22:40:10Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Yeah, that’s great. Insult everybody’s dignity because one person can’t get their crap in order. > > Fire the slacker and don’t look back. Yeah? Welcome to corporate America toots. Almost every single corporation that I have ever worked for over the past 20 years has required a drug test. Live with it. It is not insulting EVERYBODY’s dignity, it’s a fact of life. If my company asked me to drug test, I would not be insulted. They have the right to protect themselves against an employee coming into the office hopped up on something and injuring others. Wake up and smell that corporate coffee. Once you do that, try growing up and thickening up that thin skin of yours. Not everyone is out to get you. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/30 "2005-11-08T04:39:12Z")
Not everyone has had the same experience as you, **Tigrkitty**. In my 20 years of working, I haven’t been drug tested once. I would not enjoy working for a company that required it, especially not a small company that had to institute the policy because of one slack-ass. I would probably understand their reasons for doing it, but I still wouldn’t like it. My husband, the needlephobe, would probably quit before he submitted to a blood test. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/31 "2005-11-08T04:41:17Z")
Okay, must amend last statement - my husband says he probably wouldn’t quit, but he would probably pass out. And he wouldn’t like it one bit. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/32 "2005-11-08T13:48:51Z")
> [@Tiggrkitty](#): > > Have you talked to the owner about a drug free environment whereby the employees can be randomly tested for drug abuse? It might help going forward when you suspect problems like this. Our company requires a clean drug test prior to hiring, after that, if a manager suspects abuse, they can contact HR for a drug screen that day. My company also requires a clean drug test prior to hiring, etc. However, testing has its own downfalls. Most programs will encourage the employer to treat the drug user instead of firing, at least for a first offense. And singling out an employee for testing is more harrowing than you make it sound. Besides, a good Drug-Free Workplace program is much more structured and disciplined than just having a handbook with rules that are followed. This company doesn’t have the latter. It doesn’t make sense to jump into the former. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/33 "2005-11-08T13:50:46Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > Not everyone has had the same experience as you, **Tigrkitty**. In my 20 years of working, I haven’t been drug tested once. I would not enjoy working for a company that required it, especially not a small company that had to institute the policy because of one slack-ass. I would probably understand their reasons for doing it, but I still wouldn’t like it. My husband, the needlephobe, would probably quit before he submitted to a blood test. I can’t quote statistics, but I would guess that 90% of the time the Drug Free Workplace is put into effect because of Worker’s Compensation or other program costs, rather than just “we had a bad apple.” It’s way too much effort for a single bad apple! Oh, and ours is a urine test, so needlephobes needn’t quit. Cupophobes are in trouble, though. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/34 "2005-11-08T14:01:39Z")
> [@Tiggrkitty](#): > > Yeah? > > Welcome to corporate America toots. Almost every single corporation that I have ever worked for over the past 20 years has required a drug test. Live with it. > > It is not insulting EVERYBODY’s dignity, it’s a fact of life. If my company asked me to drug test, I would not be insulted. They have the right to protect themselves against an employee coming into the office hopped up on something and injuring others. > > Wake up and smell that corporate coffee. Once you do that, try growing up and thickening up that thin skin of yours. Not everyone is out to get you. So, is any degree of assholery justifiable because it’s “corporate”? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/35 "2005-11-08T15:12:35Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > So, is any degree of assholery justifiable because it’s “corporate”? It certainly appears that way. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/36 "2005-11-08T15:39:32Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > So, is any degree of assholery justifiable because it’s “corporate”? Certainly not. That’s why I consider employee handbooks and settled practices to be so important. Employees should know where they stand with regards to behavior, company policies, etc., so that they are protected from capricious, irresponsible managers who just make up rules as they go along. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/37 "2005-11-08T15:48:12Z")
> [@Tiggrkitty](#): > > Welcome to corporate America toots. Almost every single corporation that I have ever worked for over the past 20 years has required a drug test. Live with it. I have worked for five corporations ranging from tiny to giant internationals and have never once had such a requirement, nor would I consent to one when beginning a new job. You must work for some really shitty employers. > [@](#): > > It is not insulting EVERYBODY’s dignity, it’s a fact of life. If my company asked me to drug test, I would not be insulted. They have the right to protect themselves against an employee coming into the office hopped up on something and injuring others. They certainly have the right, and if we’re talking about operating factory machines or driving buses or something they may even have the requirement. And I’m certainly not opposed to drug testing for employees who may put people in danger were they intoxicated. But nothing in the OP or ensuing discussion indicates that this is such a place of employment. And if it were, it would probably have a drug testing policy already. > [@](#): > > Wake up and smell that corporate coffee. I don’t like coffee. I drink tea, though. > [@](#): > > Once you do that, try growing up and thickening up that thin skin of yours. Not everyone is out to get you. My skin is plenty thick, thank you. Why don’t you grow up and grab a set of balls, and stop tolerating invasive and humiliating hiring practices. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/38 "2005-11-08T16:31:31Z")
[brief hijack]So who should get drug tested then? Are people ok with truckers (who need commercial licenses approved by the state) being drug tested? How about airline pilots? Can the government, which licenses them, require testing as a condition of the license? Physicians? The state licenses them, and requires continuing education to maintain a license. How about demonstrating that they are not impaired? I guess what I’m asking is: Do people think some occupations need drug testing? If we want to explore this area more fully, we should probably move it to another thread. [/brief hijack] ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/39 "2005-11-08T18:55:24Z")
Exactly. We are just too mad about this drug testing stuff. If someone is in a position where their actions affect the safety of people, then yes. These folks would include bus drivers, train engineers, police, firefighters, nucke plant operators, air traffic controllers, pilots, and the like. If someone is in a position to affect national security, then yes. These folks would include all decision-makers in the military, spooks with authority to kill, hands-on management of weapon systems, the president, etc. Everybody else, no freaking way. Secretaries? NO! Home Depot board-schleppers? NO! IT professionals? NO! Any random cubicle-dwelling dweeb with no real power? Hell, fucking NO! We waste an utterly ridiculous amount of money on this asinine hysteria. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689/40 "2005-11-08T21:10:56Z")
Good points all around in this thread so I’ll just touch on one thing … > [@bubba jr](#): > > Ahh yes, I know that trick, good point. The wierd thing, is this is an atwill state, and you can fire somebody just for the fun of it. So what. I suggest a read of [this PDF document](http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2001/01/art1full.pdf) from the federal DOL. There are three exceptions to the at will doctrine. While none may apply to you in your case, do not take it for granted that the at will doctrine will save you. The fired employee may not have a leg to stand on, but that won’t stop them from trying. You might very well prevail at the end, but after repeated encounters with your state labor department, lawyers, etc., you may be out of pocket just trying to defend your (ultimately legal) firing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-fire-this-one-or-what/329689.md?page=3)