# Should I go to grad school? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 6, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491 "2014-04-06T18:15:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/21 "2014-04-07T16:56:02Z")
I often say yes in threads like this, since I loved grad school. In this case I say no. First, if you went to law school do you have the background to enter an economics PhD program? The math is really quite tough. I’m an engineer but the econometrics class my daughter took at Chicago is real daunting. Second, I doubt getting a PhD is going to help you get your book sold. Having a position at a really good school might help, but not one in a dinky school. That said, doesn’t Wall Street suck a lot of economists out of the job market, making life much easier for the rest? Nothing is easy these days, but you’d be in better shape than if you were an English major. But the real reason is that you seem to want to get a PhD to validate some opinions you have already, and that is not the way research works. If you go into things with an open mind, you might discover that heterodox economics is heterodox because it is bullshit. For another thing, I don’t think you can turn a guide to economics for the layman into a PhD dissertation by adding big words. PhDs are when you go very deep into a very small area - popular books are when you shallowly survey a very big area. Not to mention I doubt you know enough at the moment to even pick a PhD topic. I was very fixated on mine, and picked it myself, but that was after doing research in the area for a couple of years. UT Austin has an economics department. It might be worth it for you to try to talk to some faculty, or even to some grad students, for some deeper understanding of what graduate study in econ is all about. As for your book title - does it refer to beliefs of the unwashed masses? In that case it is correct, but I bet there are already a lot of books out there on the subject. Or does it refer to the field? In that case, you got a lot of learning to do. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/22 "2014-04-07T17:02:47Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I often say yes in threads like this, since I loved grad school. In this case I say no. > > First, if you went to law school do you have the background to enter an economics PhD program? The math is really quite tough. I’m an engineer but the econometrics class my daughter took at Chicago is real daunting. I agree with the general thrust of your post - no, I don’t think this is likely to be a good idea - but heterodox schools tend to be much, much different in their material than orthodox schools (of which Chicago is probably one of the best examples). One of the reasons the different heterodox schools develop is distrust of mathematical-theoretical methods of modeling human behavior. That said, someone with three semesters of college calculus usually has the necessities for graduate econ study at your average program, although metrics tends to require a bit more on the linear algebra side. Metrics tends to be the first thing to go when schools lean heterodox (though I’m not familiar with Galbraith’s particular flavor of hetero, so this may not apply), since one of the main objections to modern economic theory is with aggregation and the philosophical underpinnings of applying statistical inference to human behavior. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/23 "2014-04-07T17:43:14Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > OK, look, what do you really want to do to make a living? > You are not going to make a living by writing one book. Being a writer is a possible profession (though you need a lot of luck and hard work), but that means writing a lot of things on different subjects. Really, an econ PhD will NOT help get a book published, even an econ book. > > Being an economics guru is not a job description. I’m honestly not sure how you’re going to make a living with an econ PhD except either being a professor or working in the financial industry (I suspect that’s not really what you want to do either). > > Going to graduate school is not a career choice. It’s a step towards a career you do want. But until you know exactly what that career is, going to graduate school is a colossal waste and mistake. Presumably the OP would pick up some useful skills that–with some savviness–he could market for a variety of positions. Governments are always having to do cost-benefit analysis, for instance. If he can’t get a job with an agency, he could always sell his services as a consultant. People informed me that I’d never be able to find a job outside of academia or research with a Ph.D in marine biology. But they were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/24 "2014-04-07T20:05:24Z")
> [@Ace309](#): > > I agree with the general thrust of your post - no, I don’t think this is likely to be a good idea - but heterodox schools tend to be much, much different in their material than orthodox schools (of which Chicago is probably one of the best examples). One of the reasons the different heterodox schools develop is distrust of mathematical-theoretical methods of modeling human behavior. > > That said, someone with three semesters of college calculus usually has the necessities for graduate econ study at your average program, although metrics tends to require a bit more on the linear algebra side. Metrics tends to be the first thing to go when schools lean heterodox (though I’m not familiar with Galbraith’s particular flavor of hetero, so this may not apply), since one of the main objections to modern economic theory is with aggregation and the philosophical underpinnings of applying statistical inference to human behavior. Thaler is in Chicago - in the business school, not the econ department to be sure. My daughter works in behavioral economics, so I’m quite aware of it. I don’t recall seeing Galbraith’s name in that area, so my interpretation of heterodox economics A quick search seems to indicate that heterodox economics is not related to behavioral economics, except loosely, perhaps. But I take your point on the math. Thaler bragged about not being able to do the math. Still, a PhD in any field should require you to know about the breadth of the field, not just the specialties you are interested in. My quals covered a lot of areas I’ve never looked at again, and it’s been nearly 40 years. ---
**Author:** ![butterfiles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@butterfiles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butterfiles)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/25 "2014-04-07T20:46:30Z")
I cannot agree more with what PunditLisa said below about not needing to go to a university to learn. It’s actually one of the things I learned _by_ going to grad school. At a certain point, grad school becomes less about the subject itself than a grand show of academia. That point might be different at different universities, among varying fields, different depending on your advisors/professors, and different depending on location. However, going to a university grad program can provide you with motivation and with contacts. I wish there were grad programs just for people that want to gain knowledge - plain and simple. Not all of us want to pretend we’re contributing something new to the field of Shakespeare literature. > [@PunditLisa](#): > > One of the great fallacies of our generation is that you have to go to a university to learn. If this field of study really interests you, there is nothing preventing you from learning more about it on your own. Email professors at your targeted universities and ask them to send you a copy of their syllabi. Read the material on your own. Or, tell them that you’re really interested in heterodox economics, but cannot pursue a graduate degree at this time, and do they have any reading recommendations? > > Research to see if there are lectures, online courses, or conferences on this topic that you can attend without the risk and hassle of uprooting your family and quitting your job. > > If writing interests you, realize that you won’t make a living being an author, especially on such an obscure topic. Unless there is a job market for a heterodox economist, don’t take on more debt. A degree won’t put food on your table. > > So my advice is very pragmatic: Keep your day job and pursue this passion on the side. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/26 "2014-04-07T21:27:15Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > There’s no brick wall. I just don’t want to do, what I’m doing now, anymore. Yeah, they call it “work” for a reason, whippersnapper. Here’s what I tell my kids: Either find something that you love to do, and truly not care how much it pays, OR get a job that pays well enough that you can do what you love to do in your free time. It’s very rare to be able to do both. What troubles me about your situation is that you seem to believe that another degree is going to be a magic elixir to your ambivalence. It’s not. You risk ending up just as frustrated, but tens of thousands of dollars more in debt. What does your wife think about all this? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/27 "2014-04-07T21:32:34Z")
> [@butterfiles](#): > > I cannot agree more with what PunditLisa said below about not needing to go to a university to learn. It’s actually one of the things I learned _by_ going to grad school. At a certain point, grad school becomes less about the subject itself than a grand show of academia. That point might be different at different universities, among varying fields, different depending on your advisors/professors, and different depending on location. > > However, going to a university grad program can provide you with motivation and with contacts. > > I wish there were grad programs just for people that want to gain knowledge - plain and simple. Not all of us want to pretend we’re contributing something new to the field of Shakespeare literature. If you just want to learn stuff that interests you, I agree that grad school is not necessary. Find some textbooks and read them, and do the problems. Now, most people are not going to be able to put the time in doing this with a day job. The recent results for on-line classes show that lots of people drop out - which is not at all surprising. But the most important lesson I learned in grad school is to evaluate my own work. Whenever I write a paper I have the voice of my two advisers in my ears asking me if I can show that a given statement is true. I learned to read critically. I switched subfields after graduating so the contacts I made as a grad student weren’t all that helpful, but the methodology I learned was. I read widely, so I pick up all sorts of knowledge. But if I don’t get published in an area I’m not an expert, let alone someone who can get a job. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/28 "2014-04-08T18:31:12Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > One of the great fallacies of our generation is that you have to go to a university to learn. If this field of study really interests you, there is nothing preventing you from learning more about it on your own. Email professors at your targeted universities and ask them to send you a copy of their syllabi. Read the material on your own. Or, tell them that you’re really interested in heterodox economics, but cannot pursue a graduate degree at this time, and do they have any reading recommendations? > > Research to see if there are lectures, online courses, or conferences on this topic that you can attend without the risk and hassle of uprooting your family and quitting your job. > > If writing interests you, realize that you won’t make a living being an author, especially on such an obscure topic. Unless there is a job market for a heterodox economist, don’t take on more debt. A degree won’t put food on your table. > > So my advice is very pragmatic: Keep your day job and pursue this passion on the side. Well, I don’t have a job, I’m self-employed. There’s nothing wrong with being pragmatic, but ultimately the point of it all is to be happy. If you’re not happy with where you are, what could be more pragmatic than making a change? I agree you don’t have to go to school to learn. But I could spend hours and hours (which I don’t presently have) trying to track down the answer to an obscure but important question, or I could ask someone who already knows the answer. Which is more efficient? I like your idea of emailing professors. I have a couple in mind. It hadn’t really occurred to me that they’d email me back. But there’s no harm in trying. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/29 "2014-04-08T18:38:08Z")
> [@CatherineZeta](#): > > Do you think you’ll have a lucrative enough career in heterodox economics (not sure exactly what you could pursue specifically with that- work with the government maybe?) even without publishing the book to justify the cost of going? I am not a grad school expert, but isn’t it expensive even taking grants and stipends into account? > > I have no idea how much in debt my friend who got her Master’s in Art History is, but my friend who will be graduating with her MBA this spring told me that she’s going to be around $100,000 in debt. I would imagine that going to school for something other than an MBA is less than $100,000, but I can’t imagine it’s cheap either. > > I also think having a clear plan B is important. The friend I mentioned who got her Master’s in Art history was intending to go for her PhD, decided to stop and then realized there were no real career opportunities for her. She’s going for a second Master’s Degree in public policy, but most people are not able to go to grad school twice. She’s very lucky to be able to live with her boyfriend’s parents so she doesn’t have to worry much about a place to live, food, etc. while in school (again). LBJ offered (last time I checked) a $1600/mo stipend. The other schools are vague, but all mention something about financial assistance. My JD cost me close to $100k, not including interest, so I’m well aware of the perils of student loans. If they didn’t pay me, I wouldn’t go. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/30 "2014-04-08T19:18:38Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I agree you don’t have to go to school to learn. But I could spend hours and hours (which I don’t presently have) trying to track down the answer to an obscure but important question, or I could ask someone who already knows the answer. Which is more efficient? Guess which one you’ll be spending more time doing as a grad student. Grad school is, largely, about learning how to find things out without asking someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/31 "2014-04-08T20:22:02Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Guess which one you’ll be spending more time doing as a grad student. Grad school is, largely, about learning how to find things out without asking someone else. Which is what people tell you how to do in grad school - not just professors, but fellow grad students. Not to mention you have access to a lot more literature within a department than you do on your own. Looking for papers makes you run into all kinds of paywalls. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/32 "2014-04-08T20:39:15Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > How old are you? You mentioned a wife - are there, or will there be, kids in the picture? > > Speaking from experience, trying to do a PhD with a family including small children is a giant fucking mistake. Yeah. Married with a daughter. I’m 43. I’m old, and I’m not getting younger. ☹ My wife can work from anywhere, though as I mentioned it’d probably be good for her career to move to Salt Lake. My daughter is about to start kindergarten in the fall. If I did it - and if we moved - it’d presumably be between kindergarten and 1st grade. What, your experience, made it a giant fucking mistake? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/33 "2014-04-08T21:03:52Z")
Be aware that grad school is a heavy workload, and it’s based around your professor’s research interests, not your own. My weekly reading load was a full ream of paper- and this was stuff I was expected to analyze and discuss coherently on demand, not just skim. I wedged my own research interests in where I could, mostly in papers, but it definitely wasn’t some nice leisurely time to ponder my own burning questions. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/34 "2014-04-08T21:05:41Z")
I’m doing a PhD in biology, which is a different beast than what you’re looking at - at least, I can’t say I have experience in your field - but for me, the time commitment required is rough. It’s really starting to wear on me that, more often than not, I’m getting home after the kids are in bed. On days like that, I get to see my children for a few minutes in the morning as we’re all getting ready for the day, and that’s it. I also can’t remember the last time I’ve had a whole weekend to focus on my family without at least a small pile of work to do. And then there’s the crushing poverty and headlong flight into debt… ---
**Author:** ![BetsQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@BetsQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BetsQ)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/35 "2014-04-08T21:22:03Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > OK, look, what do you really want to do to make a living? I think the OP still needs to answer this question. What do you want to do after you finish? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/36 "2014-04-08T22:32:34Z")
Why would they let you do a PhD in Economics when you do not already have a degree in Economics? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/37 "2014-04-08T22:53:44Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yes, but what about the heterodox economics of getting a professional degree? > I mean really. The OP is asking whether he should go to some second rate PhD program to study some sort of non-traditional fridge branch of econ so he can not be a professor and write some sort of pop-guidebook on the subject? Honestly this sounds like a colossal waste of time and money with little return on investment. > > Why not study actual econ so you at least have the hope of being an economist for an investment bank, consulting firm, think tank or some other group that will actually pay you? > > Everyone says they don’t care about going to a “prestigious college” or making money until no one will hire them or pay for their lifestyle. Well, I don’t really want to work at an investment bank, or a think tank propagating false ideas. In fact I don’t want to work in the field of making rich people richer. I know there’s a lot of money in it, but it’s not what I want to do. Not that I hate money. In fact I _like_ money. But still. I do understand you think it’s a stupid idea though. My idea is that I want to advocate on behalf of a theory whose recommendations - if they were acted upon on a public policy level - would improve the performance of the US economy, reduce unemployment, and help lift people out of poverty. I realize there’s probably not much money in it. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/38 "2014-04-08T22:59:03Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Are you saying that in this economy, you are guaranteed a job even if you leave for 2 years? I don’t know what you do, but I find that very unlikely. I’m self-employed. I know I can get my old job back, because my boss is me. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/39 "2014-04-08T23:27:54Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > My idea is that I want to advocate on behalf of a theory whose recommendations - if they were acted upon on a public policy level - would improve the performance of the US economy, reduce unemployment, and help lift people out of poverty. If this is what you want to do, I don’t think you want a school that specializes in heterodox economics. To be an effective advocate, you’d need to be extremely well-versed in traditional economics. Look at the people who’ve successfully pushed for paradigm shifts in other fields. They weren’t cranks - they were people who well understood the prior state of the art and could explain exactly where the weaknesses were. That’s absolutely necessary if you want to be taken seriously. You can research heterodox economic theory for your dissertation (although that might throw a monkeywrench into your funding situation), but you don’t want to focus on that to the exclusion of the more accepted side of the argument. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491/40 "2014-04-08T23:58:05Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Why would they let you do a PhD in Economics when you do not already have a degree in Economics? That’s fine if it fits enough or adds to their experience. Like a math or statistics major could get into a number of science grad programs. And English major would have a hard time switching to biology. Physics, psychology, computer science can all be fluid. Many might have minimum requirements e.g. a transcript with organic chemistry on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-go-to-grad-school/685491.md?page=3)