# Should I (or can I) fight this fine? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 20, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248 "2013-04-20T19:45:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jennyncampbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jennyncampbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jennyncampbell)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/21 "2014-01-06T20:59:15Z")
What ended up happening??? Same thing happened to me, didn’t know I needed the permit, parents set off alarm trying to deliver Xmas presents while we were out of town, alarm company didn’t bother to call me, sent police, now I have a $230 fine! ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/22 "2014-01-06T21:13:20Z")
Zombie, but anyway … No you didn’t owe $230, it clearly said you had a _balance_ (which is a balance _due_) of $30, The $200 was not included, presumably because it could be waived under certain circumstances. I hope you went and discussed the case with a judge or the prosecutor in advance. ---
**Author:** ![jennyncampbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jennyncampbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jennyncampbell)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/23 "2014-01-06T21:58:39Z")
I called the city and they said they don’t waive the fee, we indeed owe $230–$200 fine for no permit plus $30 to get the permit. I asked for a supervisor, she said they will have to call me back. There is no appeal process listed at all in the statute. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/24 "2014-01-08T02:04:39Z")
> [@jennyncampbell](#): > > What ended up happening??? > Same thing happened to me, didn’t know I needed the permit, parents set off alarm trying to deliver Xmas presents while we were out of town, alarm company didn’t bother to call me, sent police, now I have a $230 fine! Sorry I haven’t been back to this thread. We had an appeal meeting with a City of Austin guy, who was very nice and very sympathetic. He agreed that most people fined were completely unaware of the statute and getting the word out was a challenge. I suggested that they include an insert in the utility bill - he lit up and said, “That’s a really good idea.” Next they brought in a manager type - he looked much more severe and more or less asked me to explain what happened. I did, noting that I never encountered the police officers or had any evidence of their visit (note, etc.). I also noted that we were happy to pay the fee; we just didn’t know about it. This took about 30 minutes, then they said they would review the case and get back to us. About two weeks later, we got an envelope with a letter recapping the discussion. The official guy waived all but $75 of the fine once we paid for the permit. So in essence, the appeal saved us $125 and was worth the time. The Dope has lots of opinions, and it’s good to hear them out, but ultimately, I felt vindicated because the folks who enforce the policy clearly saw validity in the points I made in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/25 "2014-01-08T02:29:45Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > Sorry I haven’t been back to this thread. We had an appeal meeting with a City of Austin guy, who was very nice and very sympathetic. He agreed that most people fined were completely unaware of the statute and getting the word out was a challenge. I suggested that they include an insert in the utility bill - he lit up and said, “That’s a really good idea.” … > > So in essence, the appeal saved us $125 and was worth the time. The Dope has lots of opinions, and it’s good to hear them out, but ultimately, I felt vindicated because the folks who enforce the policy clearly saw validity in the points I made in the thread. Glad you got it resolved to your satisfaction. When I saw the username **Hippy Hollow** , Austin/Lake Travis was the very first thought that ran thru my pointy little head. Brought back some (very old) fond memories. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jennyncampbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jennyncampbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jennyncampbell)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/26 "2014-01-15T15:24:13Z")
I have called and left 3 messages, sat on hold for over 90 minutes, asked for the supervisor–she said they’d call me back in 3-5 days…no call back. I also sent a letter. Can’t find any information on how to appeal or who to contact. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/27 "2014-01-15T15:31:28Z")
> [@jennyncampbell](#): > > I called the city and they said they don’t waive the fee, we indeed owe $230–$200 fine for no permit plus $30 to get the permit. I asked for a supervisor, she said they will have to call me back. There is no appeal process listed at all in the statute. If the $200 fine is _specifically_ for having no permit, and you have no permit, I’m afraid you may be SOL. ---
**Author:** ![CASalarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba9def/32.png) [@CASalarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CASalarm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/28 "2014-07-07T14:03:09Z")
Good morning all, I have been reading about the issues you are facing with the Austin Alarm permit ordinance. Yes, the APD has had a 200.00 fine for non permitted responses since 1992 when the alarm ordinance was reviewed by the City Council. At that time, the policy was that the fine would be waived if the user would simply send in an application and fee. However, the policy was changed on/about March of 2013 that the 200.00 fine would not be waived and that the user was subject to a misdemeanor charge as well. Furthermore, the APD did NOT inform the alarm industry and simply started enforcing the policy. Needless to say, many users have been affected by this and for good reason, not happy. Neither is the Alarm industry. We are working with the City to try to go back to the waiver policy. Since this is a end user responsibility, I would recommend that you notify your frustration to the alarm unit, your city council members and make this an issue in the upcoming elections. The real truth about false alarms is that they are going DOWN, not up. (according to APD own statistics). Yes, they get lots of dispatches, but none like they did just a few years ago…and there are many more systems in use today than in the past. I hope this is helpful. If you don’t have a permit…get one…and USE YOU’RE ALARM!!! They work!!! ---
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/29 "2014-07-07T16:18:41Z")
> [@CASalarm](#): > > Good morning all, I have been reading about the issues you are facing with the Austin Alarm permit ordinance. Yes, the APD has had a 200.00 fine for non permitted responses since 1992 when the alarm ordinance was reviewed by the City Council. At that time, the policy was that the fine would be waived if the user would simply send in an application and fee. However, the policy was changed on/about March of 2013 that the 200.00 fine would not be waived and that the user was subject to a misdemeanor charge as well. Furthermore, the APD did NOT inform the alarm industry and simply started enforcing the policy. Needless to say, many users have been affected by this and for good reason, not happy. Neither is the Alarm industry. We are working with the City to try to go back to the waiver policy. Since this is a end user responsibility, I would recommend that you notify your frustration to the alarm unit, your city council members and make this an issue in the upcoming elections. The real truth about false alarms is that they are going DOWN, not up. (according to APD own statistics). Yes, they get lots of dispatches, but none like they did just a few years ago…and there are many more systems in use today than in the past. I hope this is helpful. If you don’t have a permit…get one…and USE YOU’RE ALARM!!! They work!!! If they went back to the old system like you want, why would anyone ever voluntarily get a permit? It’d make sense for homeowners to get a system installed and ignore the permit requirement. Then, after the first time the police need to respond to their alarm, pay the permit fee and automatically get out of any fine. Unfortunately, this deprives the city of any revenue they’d receive before the first alarm. Also, because the change happened over a year ago, why is your industry still upset about it? It would have been irresponsible of you to not be informing your customers that a permit was required even during the years the city wasn’t taken enforcement seriously. It’s not like it’s hard to have a salesman say, “By the way, here’s a copy of a form you’ll need to send the city along with a $30 check.” ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/30 "2014-07-07T16:28:23Z")
These “false alarm” fees are troubling. I don’t doubt that false alarms are a problem for local police, but I don’t see how for any particular alarm they have any way of knowing if it is a false alarm or not. If I ever received such a bill, I think I’d just say “what makes you think that was a false alarm? For all we know the burglar heard the alarm and ran away.” ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/31 "2014-07-07T16:33:24Z")
> [@Mithras](#): > > It’s not like it’s hard to have a salesman say, “By the way, here’s a copy of a form you’ll need to send the city along with a $30 check.” However, it IS kind of hard to have a salesman say “Our product is going to cost you $30 more than advertised, and you will risk hundreds of dollars of fines if our product calls in too many false alarms.” ---
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/32 "2014-07-07T16:53:03Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > However, it IS kind of hard to have a salesman say “Our product is going to cost you $30 more than advertised, and you will risk hundreds of dollars of fines if our product calls in too many false alarms.” If systems today are as reliable as claimed and false alarms truly are going down, I’d think you wouldn’t burn through whatever allotment you get as a result of having a permit. And if the problem is advertised price vs. total cost of ownership, it might be in the alarm companies’ interest to petition the city to have the company pay the fee on behalf of the customers. That way, the permit fee is built into the monthly service charge. Based on the way phone and cable companies operate, though, I have a feeling that the fee wouldn’t actually be a part of the advertised price and would instead be hidden in a footnote. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/33 "2014-07-07T18:28:41Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > We’ve lived in the city for about 6 years now. Our house came with an ADT alarm system installed by the previous owners, but we didn’t activate it until about a year or two later. Luckily, we’ve not had any situations where we’ve had a break in. > > A few weeks ago, my wife left the house without de-arming the alarm (without her cell phone, natch). I got a call from ADT telling me there was an alarm and that 911 had been dispatched. Of course I call my wife to see where she is, can’t get hold of her. Long-short, I got to the house, nothing was out of place, and my wife returned. She immediately realized that she hadn’t disarmed the alarm, so we knew that’s what caused the alarm. > > By the time I arrived, there was no sign of the police department - no note on the door or anything, so I assumed they either figured out it was a false alarm or had come by quickly to inspect the house already. > > Fast forward to last week, and we received a letter stating the following: > No problem paying the permit fee, but I feel the $200 fine is unreasonable. I’m fairly certain this ordinance wasn’t in effect when we moved in and got our alarm service activated, and I’m not sure how I was supposed to know that we needed an alarm permit. I certainly didn’t receive any notice from the alarm company. I’d like to contest the fine (but of course pay the permit fee). Have any Dopers had success taking on City Hall on an issue like this? Any advice? > > PS - I did some Googling and on [City-Data.com](http://City-Data.com) someone asked about the need for alarm permits in Austin. Someone responded and stated that they had been fined, but the fined was waived if the permit was purchased. That’s what I expected, so there’s precedent, at least back in 2010. Yeah, there should be a court date. Go to the court date, explain your situation and the judge will most likely waive the fine. Unless it’s JP#2, in which case you need to vote for the judge who’s running against him, because that judge is an asshat. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/34 "2014-07-07T19:04:57Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Yeah, there should be a court date. Go to the court date, explain your situation and the judge will most likely waive the fine. > > Unless it’s JP#2, in which case you need to vote for the judge who’s running against him, because that judge is an asshat. **Hippy Hollow** started this thread in 2013. He came back in January and explained it was resolved. (post [#24](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16994311&postcount=24)) ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248/35 "2014-07-07T21:37:51Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > These “false alarm” fees are troubling. I don’t doubt that false alarms are a problem for local police, but I don’t see how for any particular alarm they have any way of knowing if it is a false alarm or not. If I ever received such a bill, I think I’d just say “what makes you think that was a false alarm? For all we know the burglar heard the alarm and ran away.” They don’t have to catch someone red-handed. At my house, the alarm is set off if an exterior door or window is opened, or glass breaks. If the police arrive and your back door lock is broken off or a window is pried open then they’ll consider it a crime. But if there are no signs of forced entry, it’s going to be treated as a false alarm. I’ve had false alarms when I didn’t pull my door to the garage closed all the way then it creaked open during the day; also once when my MIL entered with a key unexpectedly and we had not instructed her on how to disarm the alarm. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-or-can-i-fight-this-fine/656248.md?page=1)