# Should I refuse to serve in the military out of a moral standpoint? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380 "2019-01-08T00:07:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380/41 "2019-01-09T17:19:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Israel was invaded by seven foreign armies the day it declared independence. I thing that hints that a string army might have been neccessary for its survival. > > Save your Liberatarian bullshit for the U.S. and keep it out of a region for which it has absolutely no relevance and which you do not understand. And stop hijacking a potentially interesting thread. How am hijacking the thread? The OP is interested in decreasing death. I gave him options that would do so. These include in refraining from killing by not joining the military and strengthening bonds between societies by engaging in trade. These are time-tested ways for social cohesion. Annexed lands usually do require strong armies to survive. I can understand why a member of the armed forces in Israel would be upset about libertarianism in the US, but I am not even talking about libertarianism. I am talking about the history of strong armies and weak ones. Strong ones lead to more death. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380/42 "2019-01-09T17:26:41Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If the Israeli government would refrain from doing things that strong armies do, they wouldn’t have so many problems. AFAICT what Israel would refrain from doing if they didn’t have a strong military is continue to exist. > [@](#): > > The answer is to weaken the military so the politicians and military leaders can’t do much with it. As mentioned, the Kuwaiti politicians and military leaders couldn’t do much with their army either. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380/43 "2019-01-09T17:30:03Z")
As the WWII conflict ended, and militaries disbanded or were shrank drastically, the world became more peaceful and prosperous. Imagine that. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380/44 "2019-01-09T17:33:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > AFAICT what Israel would refrain from doing if they didn’t have a strong military is continue to exist.As mentioned, the Kuwaiti politicians and military leaders couldn’t do much with their army either. > > Regards, > Shodan They should refrain from colonizing and blockading but since they are strong, they do these things. It would make more sense to compare Israel to Iraq. Israel is expanding territorially through the settlements and has a much more powerful military. They also have the US green light Saddam though he had. The US is another military that causes problems through its strength. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380/45 "2019-01-09T17:56:11Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes but if Iraq had a weaker military, there may have been no conflict. If Iraq had been weaker than Kuwait, you may be correct that Iraq would not have invaded. The problem is, they weren’t, so they did. > [@](#): > > Israel is already the much stronger military like Iraq was in relation to Kuwait. No doubt this explains why Israel’s neighbors don’t treat Israel as Iraq treated Kuwait. Another counterpoint is that Saddam invaded Kuwait in large part because he needed Kuwait’s oil revenue to pay the debts he incurred in waging war against nations like Iran. So that may be a partial example of a country who wages war because they are weak rather than because they are strong. > [@](#): > > Also, the US gave Saddam the green light to invade… [I don’t believe this statement is accurate](https://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/23/world/confrontation-in-the-gulf-us-gave-iraq-little-reason-not-to-mount-kuwait-assault.html). Trying to avoid confrontation is not the same thing as saying “go ahead”. > [@](#): > > Yes the US was able to be the strongest after WWII despite getting involved in the war. Imagine if they had stayed out how strong the economy would have been. The US was the strongest nation before WWI, in the antebellum period, and after WWII, the strength of the US military was not the reason we were so strong, it was capitalism. I don’t think it would have been good for America for Japan to conquer the Pacific, or for Germany to conquer Europe. > [@](#): > > There was no large scale wars because the countries were tired of war making. Throughout the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s? That’s pretty tired. > [@](#): > > Also, the OP said he is focused on decreasing death, not any kind of maintenance of his culture or national greatness. If Israel became a tiny military who paid tribute, this would accomplish the goal of decreasing death. If you are suggesting that Israel should simply have surrendered in 1948 or 1967 or 1973, and that they would be better off if they had, I disagree. If you can come up with an example of a country attacking another because the other is too strong, I would like to see it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380/46 "2019-01-09T18:11:13Z")
Your problem, Will, is that you can’t stop thinking like an American. You think that all wars are wars of choice - which is true for you, thanks to the aforementioned oceans. Here in the real world, usually only one side of a war is there willingly, and that side is most often the side with the stronger military. I׳d rather be on that side side than the other. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380/47 "2019-01-09T18:13:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Your problem, Will, is that you can’t stop thinking like an American. You think that all wars are wars of choice - … Eh, he probably has argued at one time or another that the South had no choice but to fight. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380/48 "2019-01-09T20:00:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Your problem, Will, is that you can’t stop thinking like an American. You think that all wars are wars of choice - which is true for you, thanks to the aforementioned oceans. Here in the real world, usually only one side of a war is there willingly, and that side is most often the side with the stronger military. I׳d rather be on that side side than the other. That may be true, but I am arguing that stronger militaries lead to more deaths, not which side dies more. Do you think if the military arm of Hamas was stronger that it would lead to more or less death? They exist in your real world. You say when the Israelis feel weak, they become violent, how do you think the Palestinians respond to being in that condition? You seek to increase this imbalance. I had no idea the US was not part of the real world, though I agree that many of the citizens do not seem acquainted with it. > [@Shodan](#): > > If Iraq had been weaker than Kuwait, you may be correct that Iraq would not have invaded. The problem is, they weren’t, so they did. > No doubt this explains why Israel’s neighbors don’t treat Israel as Iraq treated Kuwait. > > Another counterpoint is that Saddam invaded Kuwait in large part because he needed Kuwait’s oil revenue to pay the debts he incurred in waging war against nations like Iran. So that may be a partial example of a country who wages war because they are weak rather than because they are strong. So in terms of limiting death, it would have been better if the Iraqi military was stronger? > [@](#): > > [I don’t believe this statement is accurate](https://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/23/world/confrontation-in-the-gulf-us-gave-iraq-little-reason-not-to-mount-kuwait-assault.html). Trying to avoid confrontation is not the same thing as saying “go ahead”.I don’t think it would have been good for America for Japan to conquer the Pacific, or for Germany to conquer Europe.Throughout the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s? That’s pretty tired. > > If you are suggesting that Israel should simply have surrendered in 1948 or 1967 or 1973, and that they would be better off if they had, I disagree. > > If you can come up with an example of a country attacking another because the other is too strong, I would like to see it. > > Regards, > Shodan I don’t think I need to if the argument is about strong or weak militaries causing death. Not about whether it’s better to live under a strong or weak military. Though I must say a militarized culture has led to much social upheaval domestically that should not be discounted. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Eh, he probably has argued at one time or another that the South had no choice but to fight. Probably? Lol hell of a case there, bud. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380/49 "2019-01-09T20:32:28Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So in terms of limiting death, it would have been better if the Iraqi military was stronger? No, just that your idea that weakness prevents war is not IMO well-founded. It would have been better if Iraq hadn’t invaded, or if Kuwait had been strong enough to defend herself and deter attack. But the strong attack the weak. The strong becoming weak doesn’t change that - just creates another victim. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380/50 "2019-01-09T21:06:50Z")
Anyway, **mifset** , have you thought a bit about what people here had to say? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380/51 "2019-01-09T22:12:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, just that your idea that weakness prevents war is not IMO well-founded. > > It would have been better if Iraq hadn’t invaded, or if Kuwait had been strong enough to defend herself and deter attack. But the strong attack the weak. The strong becoming weak doesn’t change that - just creates another victim. > > Regards, > Shodan Iraq would have been less likely to attack had they a weaker military. Similarly, Israel is less likely to commit aggressive actions if they have a weaker military. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380/52 "2019-01-09T22:17:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > In 1940, the US was weak militarily. The Japanese thought we could be intimidated into not becoming strong militarily. This sounds like utter bullshit. I have yet to read that the Japanese had any realistic expectation of defeating the US in a war and were more likely expecting to eventually negotiate a peace that would allow them to continue their adventurism. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380/53 "2019-01-09T22:50:51Z")
WillFarnaby: > [@](#): > > Similarly, Israel is less likely to commit aggressive actions if they have a weaker military. Yes, but they’re also less likely to successfully commit defensive actions is they have a weaker military. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-i-refuse-to-serve-in-the-military-out-of-a-moral-standpoint/827380.md?page=2)