# Should infanticide be legalised? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545 "2009-09-01T21:39:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/61 "2009-09-02T20:35:47Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > I advocate a phasing in of adult rights and coincident responsibilities of the child on the way to adulthood. But to begin with it ought all be up to the parents, as the alternative is worse. What alternative is that? That all human beings have a right to life? The parents have a choice already. The mother of the child can choose to abort. Or they can opt to put the child up for adoption if they don’t want it. They don’t get to kill it when it’s out of the oven. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/62 "2009-09-02T20:38:00Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > Allow me to provide one: Without the ability to make this determination for themselves, parents are merely baby sitters for the state. Very well. I modify my statement to “No one has provided a good argument in favor of legalizing infanticide, because there’s absolutely no reason to legalize infanticide. It’s a barbaric and terrible practice.” You could make the same remark about legalizing murder. It would still be absurd and would be widely unpopular, since most of us would prefer not to be killed. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/63 "2009-09-02T20:45:28Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > What does what it would turn into in a fantasy future where it’s not terminated have to do with anything? It’s an unwanted growing clump of cells that is drawing resources from the body now. May not be a tumor, but close enough that I’m not going to debate using the term as shorthand. Erm… if what it will EVENTUALLY be is irrelevant, then why are we having this discussion? Nobody’s interested in preventing anyone from removing tumors, specifically because tumors don’t turn into people. You’re never going to succeed at getting anyone to forget about that part. > [@begbert2](#): > > It’s philosophically sound, intellectually honest, AND the majority of the population doesn’t think that you can kill people who are loitering on your property! Win-win-LOSE. A person’s body is more sacrosanct than their property under just about every law known to man. And as to what “the majority of the population” thinks, I’m not running for Prom Queen, here. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/64 "2009-09-02T20:48:35Z")
If you mean if babies already born and seperated from the mother should be killed, I’d say no, even though I’m for abortions up until birth. It just opens too many floodgates ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/65 "2009-09-02T20:52:45Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > And as to what “the majority of the population” thinks, I’m not running for Prom Queen, here. Oh. ::hides “DianaG for Prom Queen” banner under chair:: How about class treasurer? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/66 "2009-09-02T20:54:24Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Erm… if what it will EVENTUALLY be is irrelevant, then why are we having this discussion? Nobody’s interested in preventing anyone from removing tumors, specifically because tumors don’t turn into people. You’re never going to succeed at getting anyone to forget about that part. Every sperm is sacred? Meh, I think not. A seed ain’t a tree. I think we’re having this discussion because the thread is (was?) discussing infanticide. To many, your position is, quite explicitly, the pro-infanticide position. “I don’t want this baby, and so it’s my right to kill it! Kill babies!” > [@DianaG](#): > > A person’s body is more sacrosanct than their property under just about every law known to man. And as to what “the majority of the population” thinks, I’m not running for Prom Queen, here. If you don’t want to change the law that’s fine, I judt wish you’d stop saving the pro-choice the effort of inventing strawmen. To me, your position is an argument _against_ pro-choice. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/67 "2009-09-02T20:55:21Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > What alternative is that? That all human beings have a right to life? The parents have a choice already. The mother of the child can choose to abort. Or they can opt to put the child up for adoption if they don’t want it. They don’t get to kill it when it’s out of the oven. The alternative is that parents are glorified babysitters for the state. That’s digsusting. Do you want to bring your child up for politicians? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/68 "2009-09-02T20:57:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Very well. I modify my statement to “No one has provided a good argument in favor of legalizing infanticide, because there’s absolutely no reason to legalize infanticide. It’s a barbaric and terrible practice.” > > You could make the same remark about legalizing murder. It would still be absurd and would be widely unpopular, since most of us would prefer not to be killed. False equivalence. Do you support conscription? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/69 "2009-09-02T20:58:22Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > The alternative is that parents are glorified babysitters for the state. That’s digsusting. Do you want to bring your child up for politicians? We’re kind of used to it, aren’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/70 "2009-09-02T21:01:12Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > We’re kind of used to it, aren’t we? That’s correct, and I don’t see it changing any time soon. We’re also used to billions going without clean drinking water. Neither situation is right. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/71 "2009-09-02T21:01:27Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Every sperm is sacred? Meh, I think not. A seed ain’t a tree. On the contrary. You see, NO ONE believes that a blastocyst IS “a person”. Well, no sane people, because that’s just friggin’ mental. So why try to argue against what no one really believes? It’s all about the fact that a blastocyst left to it’s own devices will \*become \*a person. That’s a simple fact, and there’s also no point in arguing against a simple fact. > [@begbert2](#): > > If you don’t want to change the law that’s fine, I judt wish you’d stop saving the pro-choice the effort of inventing strawmen. To me, your position is an argument _against_ pro-choice. Then you’re profoundly misunderstanding it. My argument is simply that my right to sovereignty over my own body is not dependent on the relative humanity of the fetus. No one else gets to use my body without my permission, and the fetus just plain isn’t so special that it’s an exception. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/72 "2009-09-02T21:05:51Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > That’s correct, and I don’t see it changing any time soon. > > We’re also used to billions going without clean drinking water. > > Neither situation is right. So you’re saying that we live in a terrible society because people can’t kill their own children? But are you aware that no one is forced to raise kids “for politicians”? That abortion exists, that adoption exists, and that when most people raise their kids, it’s because they want to? Or are you trying out some wacko position because you have some larger point to make? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/73 "2009-09-02T21:05:58Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > False equivalence. How so? > [@](#): > > Do you support conscription? No, and I said so earlier in this thread. A few years ago I put it this way: > [@Pro-choice and the draft](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-and-the-draft/427269/3): > > I think military conscription is undemocratic, and equivalent to attempted murder by governments. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/74 "2009-09-02T21:08:54Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > On the contrary. You see, NO ONE believes that a blastocyst IS “a person”. Well, no sane people, because that’s just friggin’ mental. So why try to argue against what no one really believes? It’s all about the fact that a blastocyst left to it’s own devices will \*become \*a person. That’s a simple fact, and there’s also no point in arguing against a simple fact. I think you might be surprised. > [@DianaG](#): > > Then you’re profoundly misunderstanding it. My argument is simply that my right to sovereignty over my own body is not dependent on the relative humanity of the fetus. No one else gets to use my body without my permission, and the fetus just plain isn’t so special that it’s an exception. And my position is, from certain angles your argument looks full of holes. The most notable being the notion that that pregnancy? You never asked for that? Just woke up one morning and suddenly were fat, did you? (And now we cite rape and immaculate conception and whatever special cases are necessary to argue for the general case to which they do _not_ apply. Right. Whatever. I have stated my case, and you don’t care that your argument is flimsy as wet toilet paper. Fine. Moving on with life…) ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/75 "2009-09-02T21:13:32Z")
How is “my body is mine and nobody gets to use it against my will regardless of the circumstance” a flimsier argument than “well, try thinking of it as a tumor”? And exactly how pro-choice are you if you’re treating “you play you pay” as a valid argument against abortion? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/76 "2009-09-02T21:23:35Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > How is “my body is mine and nobody gets to use it against my will regardless of the circumstance” a flimsier argument than “well, try thinking of it as a tumor”? Because that is your entire position, and it’s only a gross simplification-if-not-characature of mine, which is not “pretend it’s a tumor”, it’s “it is not a person or baby, therefore it is not wrong to kill it”. Your argument is flimsier than that because it’s susecptible to a broader range of counterarguments, including, “'Round these parts we don’t kill babies, ma’am.” > [@DianaG](#): > > And exactly how pro-choice are you if you’re treating “you play you pay” as a valid argument against abortion? Perfectly pro-choice, it’s just a different kind of pro-choiceness than _yours_. “You play, then you can get an abortion, but you can’t wait forever, because some time _after_ conception you stop dealing with a non-person and start dealing with a person. So, if you play and _dawdle_, you pay.” The main difference between me and some other pro-choicers is decision of where the cut-off point is: brain activity, birth, or voting age. The arguments for the latter times are a lot flimsier, though. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/77 "2009-09-02T21:27:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > How so? Because murder is of an adult who does not want to be killed (I have no problem with assisted suicide, and I suspect you don’t either). The entire point of infanticide is that the parent is making the decisions for the child, and the parent decides that it is in the best interests of the child for it to be killed. So it is simply a form of assisted suicide. > [@Marley23](#): > > No, and I said so earlier in this thread. A few years ago I put it this way: Good. I agree with you. So we agree it is wrong for the state to have power to kill its citizens. We only differ in whether the right to insist on death is the same as the right to insist on life, I think 🙂 The fact is they are two sides of the same coin. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/78 "2009-09-02T21:29:45Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > Because murder is of an adult who does not want to be killed (I have no problem with assisted suicide, and I suspect you don’t either). The entire point of infanticide is that the parent is making the decisions for the child, and the parent decides that it is in the best interests of the child for it to be killed. So it is simply a form of assisted suicide. Well, why should the parent have that right? If the parent doesn’t want to bring the child up, no politician is forcing the kid to do so. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/79 "2009-09-02T21:30:31Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Because that is your entire position. Yes, because it’s an entirely adequate position. Unless of course, you can think of some situation where using another person’s body against their will is legally or morally acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/80 "2009-09-02T21:36:26Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Yes, because it’s an entirely adequate position. Unless of course, you can think of some situation where using another person’s body against their will is legally or morally acceptable. You mean, like physically manipulating a person’s body in such a way as to damage it and thereby end their life, possibly prior to extracting it from a womb? Using their body that way? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545.md?page=5)