# Should infanticide be legalised? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545 "2009-09-01T21:39:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/81 "2009-09-02T21:36:31Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Well, why should the parent have that right? If the parent doesn’t want to bring the child up, no politician is forcing the kid to do so. Adoption is another option, and it is the one I would personally encourage over infanticide. But the parent may feel it is in the child’s interests that its life is terminated, and I support their right to determine this. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/82 "2009-09-02T21:40:41Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > Adoption is another option, and it is the one I would personally encourage over infanticide. But the parent may feel it is in the child’s interests that its life is terminated, and I support their right to determine this. Can you think of an example where this would happen? I just don’t see why the parent has that kind of authority over their kid. If it’s so obvious that the kid should be terminated, then I would think that someone else (doctor, etc.) would be aware of it, too, not just the parent. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/83 "2009-09-02T21:41:31Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > Because murder is of an adult who does not want to be killed (I have no problem with assisted suicide, and I suspect you don’t either). The entire point of infanticide is that the parent is making the decisions for the child, and the parent decides that it is in the best interests of the child for it to be killed. So it is simply a form of assisted suicide. Consent is what makes assisted suicide different from murder. So, no, a parent does not have the right to make this determination. By your reasoning, school teachers would have the right to kill their students because they are acting _in loco parentis_. Loco being the key word here. > [@](#): > > The fact is they are two sides of the same coin. In the same way that holding your nose is the similar to having someone strangle you, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/84 "2009-09-02T22:03:16Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Can you think of an example where this would happen? I just don’t see why the parent has that kind of authority over their kid. If it’s so obvious that the kid should be terminated, then I would think that someone else (doctor, etc.) would be aware of it, too, not just the parent. A simple example: Baby born with no limbs. Has some kind of terminal disease causing terrible pain. Blind and retarded. Going to last about a month tops undergoing great suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/85 "2009-09-02T22:05:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Consent is what makes assisted suicide different from murder. So, no, a parent does not have the right to make this determination. By your reasoning, school teachers would have the right to kill their students because they are acting _in loco parentis_. Loco being the key word here. The consent can be given by the parents. In theory they could assign the right to give that consent to the teacher, yes. So a smart parent would not do that, in much the same way that they do not now give consent to that teacher to authorise a sex change in the infant. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/86 "2009-09-02T22:24:34Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > The consent can be given by the parents. In theory they could assign the right to give that consent to the teacher, yes. So a smart parent would not do that, in much the same way that they do not now give consent to that teacher to authorise a sex change in the infant. I think this post speaks for itself as to how bad the idea is, and requires no further comment from me. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/87 "2009-09-02T22:26:01Z")
I do not think you have presented any arguments in any case ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/88 "2009-09-02T22:28:02Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > I do not think you have presented any arguments in any case And your only argument is what if a baby born with a terminal illness. Under such circumstances, I’d rely on a medical opinion. I don’t think a parent should have carte blanche to just decide whether or not their kid has the right to live. What happens if they’re mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/89 "2009-09-02T22:35:27Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > I do not think you have presented any arguments in any case I didn’t have to do much other than let you explain your idea. Looking upthread, I noticed just now that you said “Murder is of an adult…” So your claim of that infanticide is not murder requires the redefinition of murder. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/90 "2009-09-02T22:54:08Z")
Angry Lurker: God, are you a neo-barbarian or something? You’re such an amoral, callous man that you fail to realize that in a civilized society government has the moral obligation to stop certain practices especially murder. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/91 "2009-09-02T23:07:37Z")
**Curtis** , we’re _all_ neo-barbarians. It behooves us not to snipe each other for it. From what I can see, **Angry Lurker** is taking the ‘custodian’ role of parenthood and taking it to its extreme, more of an ‘ownership’ role. “It’s my kid - I can kill it if I want to”, in other words. Personally I don’t think this position has either ethical or legal grounds; ethically a custodian is not given unlimited liscence to abuse their dependents, and can only act in their percieved best interest, and legally the child has been given protections against various kinds of abuse, and parents can lose their custody of the child for breaching these limits. Though, if this is wrong, I should give him a chance to correct me - **Angry Lurker** , is it your opinion that a parent should have the right to spontaneously decide to end their sixteen year old’s life? Is this eqivalent to assisted suicide? What if the child is opposed to the idea? What about if they’re in physical or mental pain, does that make it okay? Can a parent decide that that stubbed toe (or that rebellious teenage atheism) is a pain best cured by death, and carry out the deed themselves? If you answered “no” to any of the above, how does infanticide differ from this? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/92 "2009-09-02T23:50:29Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You mean, like physically manipulating a person’s body in such a way as to damage it and thereby end their life, possibly prior to extracting it from a womb? Using their body that way? Do you not actually understand what “use” means? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/93 "2009-09-02T23:55:39Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Do you not actually understand what “use” means? I know what “attempting to dodge the issue by splitting hairs” means. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/94 "2009-09-03T00:01:31Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If the fetus is going to kill you most people will approve of abortion on that ground; however this doesn’t parallel elective abortion. Elective abortion is: a dude is sitting in the middle your living room, not being particularly threatening (though he is annoying and darned inconvenient). Do you have the legal right to shoot him? Answer: NO. You analogy supports anti-choice, not pro-choice. You’re rather aggressively misunderstanding me, then. The right of the homeowner is to have to intruder removed. If the intruder dies in the process, so be it. That this is a possible (or for that matter, likely or even certain) result doesn’t in any way justify being able to just move into people’s houses. The specific self-defense aspect is just to illustrate that killing even fully-formed humans who are _not_ inside one’s body can be justifiable under certain conditions. If they’re outside your body, they must (for example) be threatening you in some way. If they are inside your body, well, it’s your decision. > [@](#): > > The business about “destroying a major aspect of individual self-determination” is an opinion that flies in the face of society’s demonstrated willingness to rob you of self-determination in the favor of caring for the child - even when we’re _not_ talking about actually killing the child. Given that laws are not dictatorially decreed based on your opinions alone, this opinion is a piss-poor basis to argue for legalizing abortion. I don’t have just my opinion. It’s clear that abortion exists becasuse a large segment of the population wants it, and banning abortion outright would impose significant hardship while offering only dubious benefit. Anyway, Canada current has no abortion law per se. I’m not aware of any negative repercussions. > [@](#): > > How many (post-birth) murders are there a year? What? Millions? I guess murdering people is peachy-keen then! In the U.S. about 17000/year, and the negative effects of murder are readily apparant. What negative effects there are to abortion is unclear to me. > [@](#): > > Piss. Poor. Argument. Seriously people, I’m trying to argue for pro-choice here. Slop like this on my side of the table doesn’t help. Well, excuse the HECK outta me. > [@](#): > > Actually they’re not forgotten, they’re _dismissed_, all the way up until the child turns 18. This is old news, and society is perfectly fine with it. Your difference of opinion will convince nobody and win no ground for our side. As far as I’m concerned (i.e. in my own country), the battle’s won. That Americans will continue to writhe and boil about it is mere entertainment value. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/95 "2009-09-03T00:14:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > You’re rather aggressively misunderstanding me, then. The right of the homeowner is to have to intruder removed. If the intruder dies in the process, so be it. That this is a possible (or for that matter, likely or even certain) result doesn’t in any way justify being able to just move into people’s houses. > > The specific self-defense aspect is just to illustrate that killing even fully-formed humans who are _not_ inside one’s body can be justifiable under certain conditions. If they’re outside your body, they must (for example) be threatening you in some way. If they are inside your body, well, it’s your decision. I do not believe this is true. I think that if the dude peacefully refuses to leave and is too heavy to drag bodily out, chopping him up and moving him peicemeal is in fact _not_ among your legal options. This may be different in civilized Canada, mind you. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t have just my opinion. It’s clear that abortion exists becasuse a large segment of the population wants it, and banning abortion outright would impose significant hardship while offering only dubious benefit. Correlation doesn’t mean causation - the population might (and probably does) approved of abortion for other reasons besides and/or in addition to holding the opinion that murdering babies is peachy-peachy keen. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Anyway, Canada current has no abortion law per se. I’m not aware of any negative repercussions. > > In the U.S. about 17000/year, and the negative effects of murder are readily apparant. What negative effects there are to abortion is unclear to me. You do realise that I’m not against abortion - quite the opposite. I’m just opposed to piss-poor _arguments_ for abortion. You can answer 2\*2 by _adding_ the numbers and still get the right answer, but that doesn’t mean it’s the right way to do it. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > As far as I’m concerned (i.e. in my own country), the battle’s won. That Americans will continue to writhe and boil about it is mere entertainment value. It is indeed a fact that the only reason we keep all these social conservatives around is to amuse people in other countries with their antics. How’re we doing at it, by the way? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/96 "2009-09-03T00:30:32Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I do not believe this is true. I think that if the dude peacefully refuses to leave and is too heavy to drag bodily out, chopping him up and moving him peicemeal is in fact _not_ among your legal options. Well, perhaps a time will come when a woman who wants to end a pregnancy can call the cops, who will come over and taser the fetus, handcuff it, and take it to county to be booked on trespassing charges. Analogies are fine, but let’s not be silly with the cross-pollination. Besides, what a fetus is doing (though of course not intentionally) is hardly “peaceful”. > [@](#): > > Correlation doesn’t mean causation - the population might (and probably does) approved of abortion for other reasons besides and/or in addition to holding the opinion that murdering babies is peachy-peachy keen. I’d vaguely argue that a significant aspect of American society (arguably western society generally) still regards pregnancy as slightly icky and if you can take care of it behind closed doors and not, for heaven’s sake, make a SCENE about it, so be it. > [@](#): > > You do realise that I’m not against abortion - quite the opposite. I’m just opposed to piss-poor _arguments_ for abortion. So far I’ve seen a lot scorn and choplogic, but nothing that gives me pause. > [@](#): > > You can answer 2\*2 by _adding_ the numbers and still get the right answer, but that doesn’t mean it’s the right way to do it. Case in point. > [@](#): > > It is indeed a fact that the only reason we keep all these social conservatives around is to amuse people in other countries with their antics. How’re we doing at it, by the way? Oh, you’re a riot, and you’ll remain so until fundamentalists are thoroughly marginalized. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/97 "2009-09-03T03:27:05Z")
I am in favor of decriminalization of infanticide and do not believe it to be immoral in some cases, such as the one I outlined in a previous thread: > **[Is Murdering People Inherently 'Wrong'?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=303902)** > > Note: This thread is meant for discussion ONLY, and should not be misconstrued as advocacy of murder. Please do not kill anybody. I’ve witnessed several discussions as to whether or not killing is always ‘wrong’, but these discussions almost always... If the child is suffering and terminally ill, I think infanticide should be advocated. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/98 "2009-09-03T13:16:02Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If the fetus is going to kill you most people will approve of abortion on that ground; however this doesn’t parallel elective abortion. Elective abortion is: a dude is sitting in the middle your living room, not being particularly threatening (though he is annoying and darned inconvenient). Do you have the legal right to shoot him? Answer: NO. You analogy supports anti-choice, not pro-choice. Image the dude attached himself to you in such a way that detachment would cause his death. Do you have the legal right to shoot him. Hell, yes! Unwanted pregnancy can be seen as the most extreme form of stalking. The fetus has attached itself to a woman in such a way that she cannot get rid of it. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/99 "2009-09-03T15:55:39Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, perhaps a time will come when a woman who wants to end a pregnancy can call the cops, who will come over and taser the fetus, handcuff it, and take it to county to be booked on trespassing charges. Analogies are fine, but let’s not be silly with the cross-pollination. Besides, what a fetus is doing (though of course not intentionally) is hardly “peaceful”. Although, if I get sick of my kids, I can’t call the cops and have them removed. (I’m pro-choice and the “parasite in MY body” thing is the reason why. I don’t give a damn if its human or not, I get to decide if someone gets to remain resident in my body). But if I get sick of my kids, I can make arrangements for someone else to care for them - the state may say I need to pay child support - support them with my property. I’m physically not able to do that with a fetus inside my body - but I think that the difference between supporting life with your property and supporting it with your body is significant. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545/100 "2009-09-03T17:01:21Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I know what “attempting to dodge the issue by splitting hairs” means. I dunno, so far you’re 0 for 3 on vocab. Taking whatever measures are necessary to remove a foreign body from my own is not “using” that foreign body, and pointing out that “use” doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means is neither “dodging the issue” nor “splitting hairs”. For someone who claims to be pro-choice, your arguments are becoming increasingly hysterically focused on the selfish women who are just peachy keen with chopping up babies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-infanticide-be-legalised/508545.md?page=6)