# Should insurance companies cover "Christian counseling"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456 "2011-07-01T01:00:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/1 "2011-07-01T01:00:01Z")
Michelle Bachmann’s husband, Dr. Marcus Bachmann, is a clinical counseler in St. Paul and says this on [his website](http://www.bachmanncounseling.com/meet-our-counselors/#MarcusBachmann): > [@](#): > > Personal Mission Statement: I believe my call is to minister to the needs of people in a practical, effective, and sensitive way. **Christ is the Almighty Counselor.** The bolding is his, not mine. Bachmann is, not surprisingly, very anti gay marriage, but takes it a step further. He is an advocate of ex-gay “reparative therapy” (which few if any non-religiously affiliated mental health agencies take seriously) and delivers paid speeches on ““The Truth About the Homosexual Agenda”. From this article: > [@](#): > > He had advice for parents whose children are gay or lesbian. “I think you clearly say what is the understanding of God’s word on homosexuality,” he said. “We have to understand that barbarians need to be educated, they need to be disciplined, and just because someone feels it or thinks it doesn’t mean we need to go down that road. That’s what’s called the sinful nature.” > > He added, “And we have a responsibility as parents and authority figures not to encourage such thoughts and feelings moving into the action steps.” This is seriously at odds with the position of the American Psycological Association, the American Counseling Association, and most other non-sectarian agencies involved in the credentialing and guidelines of professional counseling. Further, many people in those fields and many studies would support that the type of counseling that Bachmann and his ilk would likely give to a gay youth would not only be of little to no benefit but may do significant damage; there are precedents of gays who have suffered immense emotional trauma from “therapy” that hinged on the notion they were sinful and or broken. However, the website for [Bachmann and Associates](http://www.bachmanncounseling.com/) (most of the affiliates give some form of religious testimonial in their ‘about’ pages) states “we accept most insurance plans”. Why would an insurance plan pay for a dogmatically indoctrinated counseling sessions that are at complete odds with most scholarly research in the field and that conceivably can do great harm? I don’t know of any insurance plans that would pay for Tarot card reading or augury, even if the person had a Ph.D., and these are about as respected by the mainstream counseling profession as Bachmann’s philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/2 "2011-07-01T01:09:22Z")
I guess they can cover whatever they want, but I don’t know why they _would_ want to cover this garbage. It may be that all that matters is the provider has the correct licensing. “Reparative therapy” is religious brainwashing, not any kind of actual therapy, but if the practicioner has a license, the insurance companies probably don’t care. If insurance companies are actually willing to pay for people to try to change their sexual orientations, that’s really weird, though. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/3 "2011-07-01T01:15:56Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Why would an insurance plan pay for a dogmatically indoctrinated counseling sessions that are at complete odds with most scholarly research in the field and that conceivably can do great harm? Because in this country religion - especially Christianity - gets a pass for all sorts of things where other forms of crackpottery would get cracked down on instantly. Just look at all the faith healers. And it’s entirely possible that the insurance company in question is run by believers who care more about indulging their religious fantasies than they do their bottom line.They may not even believe that it works, but are just using it as an excuse to funnel corporate money to a fellow Christian believer. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/4 "2011-07-01T02:43:01Z")
And as per the cliche, you hear [Dr. Bachmann speak](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yujOclQ0P8&feature=player_embedded)or [see his mannerisms](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8xOwetxQ8g) and you wouldn’t be surprised to find a trail of little bitty Barbie purses in his wake. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/5 "2011-07-01T02:51:51Z")
What is the policy for say homeopathy and New Age medicine? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/6 "2011-07-01T03:28:06Z")
They cover “Christian counselling” because they can make money out of covering it. Isn’t this obvious? At the micro level, they obviously want to control expenditure. But at the macro level, the wider the range of treatments they cover, the more they can charge for their plans, and the greater their turn on each plan sold. Bachmann (I presume) has all the licensing, qualifications, certifications, etc that he is required to have. There is no particular incentive for the insurers to refuse to cover treatments provided by him on that basis that, for ideological reasons, their are parts of his job that he may not do very well, or may be incompetent at. That won’t make them any money, will it? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/7 "2011-07-01T03:28:18Z")
Insurance typically covers chiropractic care and “mainstream” non-traditional therapy (such as acupuncture and massage therapy) on a limited basis (say, 12 visits per quarter) or on a discounted basis (ie., the insurer pays 2/3 of the reasonable and customary charge and you pay the rest). If insurance customers want policies that cover Jesus therapy, I don’t have a problem with it. ETA: Herr Bachmann is a licensed clinical psychologist. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/8 "2011-07-01T14:37:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Insurance typically covers chiropractic care and “mainstream” non-traditional therapy (such as acupuncture and massage therapy) on a limited basis (say, 12 visits per quarter) or on a discounted basis (ie., the insurer pays 2/3 of the reasonable and customary charge and you pay the rest). I think this is also true of middle-of-the-road, medically-prescribed physical therapy and psychological therapy too. I.e., they won’t pay on an open-ended basis. It occurs to me that the companies might cover religion-based therapy on these same terms based on concern of being sued for discrimination if they did not. (No idea whether such a suit would have merit). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/9 "2011-07-01T14:51:27Z")
Pretty sure that would only have legs if they covered therapies based on some religions but not others. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/10 "2011-07-01T14:58:45Z")
The far more troublesome issue is that this guy is getting Medicaid money for this. How is that even legal. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/11 "2011-07-01T15:01:26Z")
Public funds can be used for religious stuff as long as the purpose of the spending is not religious. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/12 "2011-07-01T15:07:48Z")
How is pray-away-the-gay not religious? ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/13 "2011-07-01T15:42:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How is pray-away-the-gay not religious? I imagine that some of his counselling work is not sexuality based… ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/14 "2011-07-01T15:56:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Insurance typically covers chiropractic care and “mainstream” non-traditional therapy (such as acupuncture and massage therapy) on a limited basis (say, 12 visits per quarter) or on a discounted basis (ie., the insurer pays 2/3 of the reasonable and customary charge and you pay the rest). I actually just took a workers compensation class last week and for “alternative medicine” it has to be physician prescribed. And in states like California, the prescription is good for up to 3 visits and after that there needs to be noticeable improvement from the prescribing physician for further “care”. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/15 "2011-07-01T16:01:10Z")
I would WAG because he is a licensed therapist and nothing to do with the religious aspect. Insurance companies pay for licensed therapists, that’s what they do. The insurance industry is not in the business of qualifying a therapist, that’s what the paper hanging on the therapist’s wall does. Also insurance companies are in the business of attracting people to their service, as such offering a wider variety of therapy increases the number of people that may take a insurance policy out with them. So it has nothing to do with religion or his views on it only $. My own view is his view on God is wrong, his views seem more in line with Satan’s. This does not stop people in other fields, and does not stop God being able to work through this person even with such slanted views. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/16 "2011-07-01T16:04:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How is pray-away-the-gay not religious? Do you consider AA religious? Part of their method from my understanding is basically pray away the booze. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/17 "2011-07-01T16:07:26Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Do you consider AA religious? Part of their method from my understanding is basically pray away the booze. I do. It’s also been ruled as such in several courts, not to mention their success rates are no better than any other means of quitting. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/18 "2011-07-01T16:32:57Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > I actually just took a workers compensation class last week and for “alternative medicine” it has to be physician prescribed. And in states like California, the prescription is good for up to 3 visits and after that there needs to be noticeable improvement from the prescribing physician for further “care”. Under workers’ compensation _any_ medical care has to be prescribed or recommended by a physician. Workers’ compensation isn’t really analogous because covered medical expenses are established by statute or regulation. Insurers can’t decide for themselves what to cover. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/19 "2011-07-01T16:36:45Z")
If they cover Christian counseling, then they should cover Scientology courses. When will that happen? Never? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/20 "2011-07-01T16:37:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Do you consider AA religious? Part of their method from my understanding is basically pray away the booze. [This was from a couple weeks ago.](http://www.thefix.com/content/does-aa-need-god) > [@](#): > > A long-standing rift in the A.A. rank and file broke into the open over the weekend as Toronto’s two atheist/agnostic Alcoholics Anonymous groups were thrown off the official city list. The Greater Toronto Area Intergroup, the local A.A. coordinating organization, voted to remove the two groups from the published directory of meetings, and from its website. The Toronto Star said the city’s two secular groups, named Beyond Belief and We Agnostics, kicked up the fuss by adopting a rewritten version of the famous Twelve Steps, removing all references to “God” that appear in Bill W.’s original version. “The name of God appears four times in the Twelve Steps,” writes the Star’s Leslie Scrivener, “and echoes the period in which they were written—the 1930s.” But rewriting the basic tenets of A.A. as preserved through the years did not sit well with many A.A. members. “They [the altered Twelve Steps] are not our Twelve Steps,” said an A.A. member who was at the meeting of the Intergroup that de-listed the two groups. “They’ve changed them to their own personal needs.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456.md?page=2)