# Should insurance companies cover "Christian counseling"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456 "2011-07-01T01:00:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/41 "2011-07-02T03:20:55Z")
I have faith in God and all that, but that doesn’t mean I have to fully agree with the bible. God want spiritual fruits, not religious nuts. But in regards to the OP, the Bachmanns are trolls. _And Jesus said unto the people of the internet, "Feed ye not the trolls, but let them starve, for they are most wicked and vile, with their unkind words and horrid goatse pics, which they would use to incite your fury and anger._ ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/42 "2011-07-02T11:53:23Z")
Just because the practice “accepts most insurance plans”, it does not necessarily follow that all of the practitioners are recognized as providers. There is a fairly detailed procedure to sign on as a network provider, and not every individual goes through it. It may also be that they don’t accept insurance for the “reparative therapy”. Some practices perform servicesnthat they know are not covered, so they just won’t bill theninsurance company; they do it on a cash-and-carry basis. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/43 "2011-07-02T11:58:41Z")
Check [this guy](http://www.bachmanncounseling.com/therapists/timothy-wiertzema/) out. Nice haircut. His specialty is men’s issues. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/44 "2011-07-02T20:01:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I took **Grumann’s** point ot be that someone providing “Christian counseling” – that is, counseling intended to bring the patient closer to God – should not charge for his or her services. Jesus didn’t ask for money for healing people, after all. If the sole purpose of Christian counseling were to bring someone closer to God, then your claim would have more validity. Even then though, it flies in the face of both the Bible and common sense. Clergymen typically occupy paid positions, after all, since this allows them the freedom to serve their flocks on a full-time basis. Take away their pay, and you take away their ability to serve in this fashion. That was, in face, the point of Luke 10:7, the verse that I cited earlier. Moreover, you’re laboring under the assumption that Christian counseling must have closeness to God as its primary goal. That simply isn’t true. The main goal of counseling is to help someone deal with his or her problems. Frequently, this will require getting close to God, but that doesn’t mean that evangelism or religious exhortation is the counselor’s primary responsibility. > [@](#): > > Of course, Jesus was not an asshole. This distinguishes him from many current Christians. Again, even if we accept that kind of snide remark, it’s simply irrelevant to the issue at hand. Charging for one’s services does NOT automatically make someone an orifice, especially when those services require a considerable amount of time, training, and personal expense (e.g. tuition). ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/45 "2011-07-03T05:16:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **stpauler** > “They’ve changed them to their own personal needs.” > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Not meaning to hijack, but I was floored by the irony of this statement. Isn’t your personal need to get keep alcohol from destroying your life the whole point of AA? If an atheist version of AA is what you personally need to get off the booze then more power to you. Of course, as any 12-stepper will remind you: “The 12 steps are _ **only suggestions** _.” And yet when a couple of groups in Toronto decided they would take that seriously and not use the “suggestion-only” 12 steps as a part of their meetings they were voted off the island. The Greater Toronto Area AA Intergroup is a pack of fucking hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/46 "2011-07-03T05:24:51Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Check [this guy](http://www.bachmanncounseling.com/therapists/timothy-wiertzema/) out. Nice haircut. His specialty is men’s issues. You shouldn’t be so hard on (heh) Timothy. I’m sure he’s very good at what he does. After all, he _does_ have a degree from [Argosy University](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argosy_University). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/47 "2011-07-06T22:50:19Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Do insurance companies cover medical marijuana now? I don’t see why not. States that allow it are pretty strict about a licensed doctor writing the scrip. > [@xtisme](#): > > I would assume so since it’s a drug that can be prescribed by a doctor. Why wouldn’t they cover it? > > -XT Formularies. And they have the perfect “out.” Or even two of them. First, the DEA still carries MJ on the Schedule that says “not approved for any therapeutic use.” Also, insurance companies are probably only going to reimburse licensed pharmacies for the distribution of meds. I’m not aware that any pharmacies are also medical MJ dispensaries. P.S. (also if I understand correctly) the doctor’s document that dispensaries rely on to qualify a patient are not, legally speaking, prescriptions. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/48 "2011-07-06T23:02:38Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Check [this guy](http://www.bachmanncounseling.com/therapists/timothy-wiertzema/) out. Nice haircut. His specialty is men’s issues. Heh. He looks like [Mickey Morrelli.](http://www.flickr.com/photos/pikturz/4234475199/in/photostream/) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/49 "2011-07-06T23:06:26Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I took **Grumann’s** point ot be that someone providing “Christian counseling” – that is, counseling intended to bring the patient closer to God – should not charge for his or her services. Jesus didn’t ask for money for healing people, after all. > > Of course, Jesus was not an asshole. This distinguishes him from many current Christians. > [@JThunder](#): > > If the sole purpose of Christian counseling were to bring someone closer to God, then your claim would have more validity. Even then though, it flies in the face of both the Bible and common sense. Clergymen typically occupy paid positions, after all, since this allows them the freedom to serve their flocks on a full-time basis. Take away their pay, and you take away their ability to serve in this fashion. That was, in face, the point of Luke 10:7, the verse that I cited earlier. > > Moreover, you’re laboring under the assumption that Christian counseling must have closeness to God as its primary goal. That simply isn’t true. The main goal of counseling is to help someone deal with his or her problems. Frequently, this will require getting close to God, but that doesn’t mean that evangelism or religious exhortation is the counselor’s primary responsibility. I’m not a congregant in any Abrahamic religion-based churches, but it had not been my understanding that congregants who seek pastoral counseling are presented with a bill for services rendered. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/50 "2011-07-06T23:07:17Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Formularies. > > And they have the perfect “out.” Or even two of them. First, the DEA still carries MJ on the Schedule that says “not approved for any therapeutic use.” Also, insurance companies are probably only going to reimburse licensed pharmacies for the distribution of meds. I’m not aware that any pharmacies are also medical MJ dispensaries. > > P.S. (also if I understand correctly) the doctor’s document that dispensaries rely on to qualify a patient are not, legally speaking, prescriptions. Yup, that sounds right. Here in Colorado the doctor can write you a recommendation the state recognizes so you can use, grow and buy it, but I’ve never actually heard of insurance or prescription plans ever covering it. They are pretty clear it’s not a prescription. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/51 "2011-07-08T04:59:06Z")
I was told very plainly when I dealt with [HOCD symptoms](http://www.neuroticplanet.com/hocd.php) (it lasted maybe a couple weeks) that a therapist ethically cannot ask you to accept your sexuality if you do not want to. I have a bigger problem with government funding of those who do not believe this, and thus are attempting to modify someone’s religious beliefs. If teachers cannot instruct on what portions of religion are correct, neither should anyone receiving money from the state. If you want to be an unhappy gay person, the state should not interfere. As for private insurance companies, I agree with kanicbird (something I’ve been doing with alarming frequency lately). It’s all about money for them. If they can make money supporting a therapy that doesn’t work, more power to them. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456/52 "2011-07-08T13:38:01Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’m not a congregant in any Abrahamic religion-based churches, but it had not been my understanding that congregants who seek pastoral counseling are presented with a bill for services rendered. “Christian Counseling” =/= “Pastoral Counseling” The latter is what a minister or qualified layperson does. The former is done by a qualified mental health professional who is a Christian and incorporates that into their therapeutic approach. Most counselors are not formally connected to any specific congregation or denomination (though there are exceptions). What that “incorporation” entails varies, but it’s probably a lot less than you expect; it’s really mostly about creating a more comfortable atmosphere for the client, who wants a therapist who shares his or her deepest values. e.g. if you knew your therapist is an atheist, it’d be a little hard to talk freely about the consolation you find in prayer without wondering if the guy is smirking at you. It generally is not spiritual in nature – it’s mental health counseling among members of a community, much as a black client might seek out a black therapist, a gay client a gay therapist, etc. Pastoral Counseling, OTOH, _is_ primarily spiritual. Your mom dies, the pastor comes over, holds your hand, talks, reads scripture if you want, etc. He may do this several times. If your grief starts sliding into severe depression, and/or you need to see someone every week, he’s going to refer you to a professional counselor. Pastoral Counseling is free because it’s done on a limited and ad hoc basis, and because the pastor is paid by the church. Counselors generally charge, for the same reasons other mental health professionals charge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-insurance-companies-cover-christian-counseling/587456.md?page=2)