# Should it be a crime to feed feral cats within the city limits? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526 "2017-12-29T17:24:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/41 "2017-12-31T07:50:16Z")
If you love deer, I am begging you, PLEASE don’t feed them. Maybe you feel you’re doing them a kindness. You’re not. Here’s why: 1. You’re feeding them wrong. Deer feed is like junk food for deer. It contains large amounts of corn and other foods that disrupt the microbes in their intestinal tracts that break down fiber-rich foods. This is particularly dangerous when a deer first starts on food offered by humans, which disrupts the healthy bacteria in their digestive tracts, and when they stop. Even if you’re not feeding them deer feed, you’re not feeding them what they really need. 2. Depending on the species and the season, deer consume between 7 and 12 pounds of food a day. Each. And if you’re feeding them, you’d better be feeding them every single day for the rest of their lives. (See #1.) They need more body fat in the fall, but feeding them speeds their metabolism, so they store less fat. 3. You’re making disease among deer more likely. In the wild, deer are spread out while they forage. Feeding draws them into urban environments, where they’re in closer proximity to each other and spread diseases like wasting disease. The bottom line is this: if you’re feeding deer, you’re doing it for you, not for them, and you’re doing it at their expense. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/42 "2017-12-31T13:44:39Z")
> [@fervour](#): > > Because they want to. The cats want to go outside. It matters not to me that they didn’t start detained. The fact that they want to go outside means something. I assume you want to go outside. Would you deny that right to your child? Imprisoning something wild because you feel it would be better for a different species seems-----I don’t know. Have you never loved an imperfect animal? I would not allow either my toddler or my cat to go out unsupervised. If I allowed either to happen I would rightly be condemned as an irresponsible parent or cat owner. Perhaps you live far from your neighbors so your caretaking of your cats really isn’t a big deal. > [@fervour](#): > > I don’t see how you have answered why wild birds are more valuable then feral cats. Off the top of my head, it depends on the species, how endangered the bird is, whether the wild birds are being enjoyed by another human, or whether the wild bird is on your neighbor’s property. The article I linked to earlier made it clear we really don’t know how feral cats affect populations of birds, mammals, reptiles, and amphibians. I doubt there is any definitive evidence that feral cats control pests. In the end, this is a values judgment. There is no objective reason to favor birds over cats or cats over birds. Even if the bird a cat has its eyes on is from the last existing viable population of its species, there is no objective reason to stop it from stalking that bird and making its kill. This is why I can only hope the nuisance created by people who are irresponsible with cats is enough to get the law to come down effectively against people who treat cats irresponsibly. ---
**Author:** ![fervour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@fervour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fervour)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/43 "2017-12-31T15:44:42Z")
You are clearly very thoughtful, Inbred. I value your opinion. Thank you, for clarifying. I, too, value endangered species. I’m not sure how much we can do, or should do, about it. I failed to mention that I have a third cat who is maybe 4 years old. She is dumb as a door----very affectionate. She cannot catch a bird if she tried. However, she was smart enough to connect herself to a larger system. I wish I had the answers. I wish I had stolen them from the teacher, but then, where’s the fun in that? ETA, I would like for you to imagine your toddler an 18 year old. Would you really want to restrict that child’s access to the inside? For me, give me liberty or give me death. ---
**Author:** ![fervour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@fervour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fervour)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/44 "2017-12-31T17:11:41Z")
For the record (FTR), you never, never enter an acronym without defining it first. TNR is Trap, neuter, release. No, of course I’ve never heard of it. Shame on you for using it without defining it first. ---
**Author:** ![fervour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@fervour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fervour)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/45 "2017-12-31T17:23:13Z")
Jesus effing christ. To me: I’m like, “Are you nuts? You just used an overloaded acronym, ETA, which is ‘Edited to Add’ or ‘Estimated time of arrival’” So, sorry for that. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/46 "2017-12-31T17:47:40Z")
I’m not clear on how much property damage is being caused in Urbana, Ohio … or is it that the gardeners are sick of getting cat shit on their hands … In some places there is a real need to stop folks from setting cat food outside … it can attract and feed burrowing animals … who then burrow into the local levee and cause the whole town to flood … c.f. Marysville, CA … If there’s prey available for a predator species, there’s going to be a predator species in your neighborhood … house cats make for about the safest option, although bobcats are pretty safe as well … but if there’s mountain lions about, it’s not all that bad of idea keeping the wildlife thinned out … > [@nelliebly](#): > > I love cats, but you’re making a false comparison. Feral cats are not the same as wildlife; they’re a domestic species that has been inhumanely returned to the wild state … [snip] A truly feral cat will always run from a human, they were never socialized to humans as a kitten … if a cat tolerates humans then it might be an abandoned cat … and I think that’s just cruel … God I’m sick of these poor critters showing up at my door half covered in asphalt burns … so please slow down a bit before you chuck _ **your** _ cat out the car window … ---
**Author:** ![The\_Plutonium\_Kid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@The\_Plutonium\_Kid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Plutonium_Kid)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/47 "2017-12-31T19:39:57Z")
Where I live, you can be held legally responsible for damage caused by any wild or feral animal you feed or otherwise encourage to hang around. You might want to check the laws in your area before you start feeding one. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/48 "2017-12-31T21:08:47Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I’m not clear on how much property damage is being caused in Urbana, Ohio … or is it that the gardeners are sick of getting cat shit on their hands … > > In some places there is a real need to stop folks from setting cat food outside … it can attract and feed burrowing animals … who then burrow into the local levee and cause the whole town to flood … c.f. Marysville, CA … > > If there’s prey available for a predator species, there’s going to be a predator species in your neighborhood … house cats make for about the safest option, although bobcats are pretty safe as well … but if there’s mountain lions about, it’s not all that bad of idea keeping the wildlife thinned out … > > A truly feral cat will always run from a human, they were never socialized to humans as a kitten … if a cat tolerates humans then it might be an abandoned cat … and I think that’s just cruel … God I’m sick of these poor critters showing up at my door half covered in asphalt burns … so please slow down a bit before you chuck _ **your** _ cat out the car window … I meant to say the species is domestic, not that feral cats are. I so agree about abandoned animals! I once lived far outside that remote rural town I mentioned, and the area was a dumping ground for people who didn’t want their dogs any longer. My dog wouldn’t tolerate other dogs in our house, but I fed the abandoned dogs and took them to the local no-kill shelter. It infuriates me that people do this. Do they kid themselves that these pets will somehow survive in the wild? How is it easier to dump an animal in the countryside than to drive to your local no-kill shelter? ---
**Author:** ![fervour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@fervour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fervour)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/49 "2017-12-31T22:50:16Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I meant to say the species is domestic, not that feral cats are. I so agree about abandoned animals! I once lived far outside that remote rural town I mentioned, and the area was a dumping ground for people who didn’t want their dogs any longer. My dog wouldn’t tolerate other dogs in our house, but I fed the abandoned dogs and took them to the local no-kill shelter. It infuriates me that people do this. Do they kid themselves that these pets will somehow survive in the wild? How is it easier to dump an animal in the countryside than to drive to your local no-kill shelter? QFT, quite fucking true, I live in a remote area and I cannot tell you how many abandoned animals I have had to deal with. Just sad----not Trump sad----The real thing. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/50 "2018-01-01T01:14:14Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > A truly feral cat will always run from a human, they were never socialized to humans as a kitten … if a cat tolerates humans then it might be an abandoned cat … and I think that’s just cruel … God I’m sick of these poor critters showing up at my door half covered in asphalt burns … so please slow down a bit before you chuck _ **your** _ cat out the car window … I would imagine doing that would count as animal cruelty, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/51 "2018-01-01T05:44:11Z")
> [@fervour](#): > > … to imagine your toddler an 18 year old. Would you really want to restrict that child’s access to the inside? If my 18-year-old had a habit of killing quantities of native birds, I would most certainly want to keep him/her inside. Please note that it’s not a case of preferring birds to cats - given a modest level of cat-owner responsibility, both can prosper. ---
**Author:** ![fervour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@fervour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fervour)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/52 "2018-01-02T02:15:07Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > If my 18-year-old had a habit of killing quantities of native birds, I would most certainly want to keep him/her inside. > > Please note that it’s not a case of preferring birds to cats - given a modest level of cat-owner responsibility, both can prosper. fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/53 "2018-01-02T19:24:09Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why do you feel that you’re above the law? Civil disobediance. You have a moral and ethical right to disobey a immoral or unethical law. I think that all ferals need to be TNR (trapped, neutered and returned". It has been show that TNR felines keep other feral cats at bay and will reduce the feral population in time. > **[Why Trap-Neuter-Return Feral Cats? The Case for TNR](https://www.alleycat.org/resources/why-trap-neuter-return-feral-cats-the-case-for-tnr/)** > > What is Trap-Neuter-Return (TNR)? Trap-Neuter-Return is the humane & effective approach to stray and feral cats, also known as community cats. It stabilizes cat populations by stopping reproduction. Learn more about TNR & how it improves the... Colonies that are involved in TNR diminish in size over time. During an 11-year study of TNR at the University of Florida, the number of cats on campus declined by 66%, with no new kittens being born after the first four years of operation.1 A study of the impact of TNR on feral cat colonies in Rome, Italy, also observed colony size decrease between 16% and 32% over a 10-year period. Trap-Neuter-Return quickly stabilizes feral cat populations by instantly ending reproduction and by removing socialized cats from the colony. A TNR program at the University of Texas A&M neutered 123 cats in its first year, and found no new litters of kittens the following year. Over the course of the same study, 20% of the cats trapped were found to be socialized stray cats and adopted.2 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/54 "2018-01-02T19:26:17Z")
> [@fervour](#): > > Because they want to. The cats want to go outside. It matters not to me that they didn’t start detained. The fact that they want to go outside means something. I assume you want to go outside. Would you deny that right to your child? Imprisoning something wild because you feel it would be better for a different species seems-----I don’t know. Have you never loved an imperfect animal? > > I don’t see how you have answered why wild birds are more valuable then feral cats. Cats are perfectly happy in a house, assuming reasonable space. They dont need to go outside, and altho it may seem they are a little happier, since their lifespan is generally _reduced by half-_ they have a much less happy life. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/55 "2018-01-03T02:10:19Z")
Put me on the side of birds and lizards - feral feline colonies need to be eliminated with severe prejudice, consistent with the best science. Unfortunately, the scientific case for TNR isn’t as strong as the advocacy website helpfully linked to by Dr. Deth indicates. TNR advocates state at times that the practice will eliminate feral colonies, and I understand there’s not good evidence for this. Not surprising, as many TNR feral colonies receive food subsidies by sentimental humans. More research is necessary, but I say we need to stop feeding invasive species. Bird advocacy organization criticizing TNR: [Trap, Neuter, Release](https://abcbirds.org/program/cats-indoors/trap-neuter-release/) Scientific article: “Critical Assessment of Claims Regarding Management of Feral Cats by Trap–Neuter–Return” (2009) Abstract: [Critical assessment of claims regarding management of feral cats by trap-neuter-return - PubMed](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19245489) Selected quote from introduction: [INDENT][INDENT] Unfortunately, TNR does not eliminate feral cat colonies under prevailing conditions (Jessup 2004; Winter 2004, 2006) and many false claims used to support the approach go unchallenged. Published research has been distorted by TNR proponents with little response from the scientific community, perhaps in part because TNR has been approached largely as an animal welfare issue instead of being recognized as a broad environmental issue with a range of impacts on species conservation, the physical environment, and human health. Conservation scientists and advocates must properly identify the environmental implications of feral cat management and actively engage this issue to bring scientific information to the attention of policy makers. [/INDENT][/INDENT] ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/56 "2018-01-03T02:19:50Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Put me on the side of birds and lizards - feral feline colonies need to be eliminated with severe prejudice, consistent with the best science. > > Unfortunately, the scientific case for TNR isn’t as strong as the advocacy website helpfully linked to by Dr. Deth indicates. TNR advocates state at times that the practice will eliminate feral colonies, and I understand there’s not good evidence for this. Not surprising, as many TNR feral colonies receive food subsidies by sentimental humans. More research is necessary, but I say we need to stop feeding invasive species. > ] Obviously more data would be good, but I have never heard a TNR advocate say that TNR “eliminates” feral colonies, it only\* controls\* them. You could of course start killing them, but most people wouldnt liek that and since many “feral” cats are just lost housepets, some of which in TNR work- are returned to their happy owner, it would be pretty immoral to do so. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/57 "2018-01-03T02:26:08Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Put me on the side of birds and lizards - feral feline colonies need to be eliminated with severe prejudice, consistent with the best science.More research is necessary, but I say we need to stop feeding invasive species. > entific information to the attention of policy makers. [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT] And if we are going to eliminate invasive species, then we have to eliminate dogs, horses, goats, sheep, cattle, chickens, pigs and humans. Turkeys are Ok tho!😛 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/58 "2018-01-03T04:09:38Z")
Dogs, horses, etc don’t kill 3 billion wild birds per year. Cite (says 1.4 - 3.7 billion): [Cats kill up to 3.7B birds annually](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/29/cats-wild-birds-mammals-study/1873871/) PDF of scientific article I forgot to link to: [https://abcbirds.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Longcore-et-al.-2009-Critical-assessment-of-TNR-claims.pdf](https://abcbirds.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Longcore-et-al.-2009-Critical-assessment-of-TNR-claims.pdf) It addresses and debunks many of the claims of TNR advocates. One 10 year TNR program in Rome concluded that their efforts were a waste of money, time and energy. Examples of successes often fail to evaluate wildlife impacts. I see no problem with traditional animal control methods, along with efforts to avoid feeding non-native species and (often simultaneously) pests. Animals with collars can be returned to their homes. Those without will be at risk. I concede there are political issues and varying opinions. I also find it plausible that the right sort of TNR program might be made to work, but I strongly suspect that in practice a mixture of methods would be best. For example, the paper notes the following: [INDENT][INDENT] Mathematical models of feral cat populations indicate that 71–94% of a population must be neutered for the population to decline, assuming there is no immigration (Andersen et al. 2004; Foley et al. 2005). This level of neutering and exclusion of additional cats has not been consistently documented in practice. [/INDENT][/INDENT] …but it might be feasible in selected areas, eg. **Duckster** ’s backyard. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/59 "2018-01-05T12:47:35Z")
> [@fervour](#): > > ETA, I would like for you to imagine your toddler an 18 year old. Would you really want to restrict that child’s access to the inside? For me, give me liberty or give me death. I regard an adult cat as something closer to a toddler than an adult human in terms of care. But an 18 year old could be self-destructive or other-destructive in a such a way that I wouldn’t want them to go outside unsupervised. If I were in your shoes, I might think twice about allowing the cat out during bird migration times of the year, and I would do something to make myself confident there weren’t any endangered wildlife the cat could be helping to their demise. If the cat is killing nightjars and different types of sparrows I wouldn’t worry about it too much. I wouldn’t let the cat out at all if it was going onto my neighbors’ property. ---
**Author:** ![FreedomRider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/85f322/32.png) [@FreedomRider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FreedomRider)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526/60 "2018-01-07T18:08:22Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > I have wrestled with this for a long time. Feed feral animals or no? > > Sure, I feel the animal’s hunger. And I hate it. > > On the other hand, a well fed animal will have more frequent, and larger litters. Which equals a larger feral population. > > I applaud the Duck’s efforts. And his rewards. But they are all sterile ferals. > > People who feed feral animals would do well to support sterilization efforts in their area. Yes sterilization is the right answer, it’s very effective actually. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-a-crime-to-feed-feral-cats-within-the-city-limits/805526.md?page=4)