# Should it be illegal to work on your own car? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631 "2015-05-09T16:31:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/41 "2015-05-13T16:20:55Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > I was going to say the same thing. I’m a little tired of people saying you can’t work on your own car anymore, because in many ways they are easier to diagnose than ever. I find that actually having the codes on-hand and their meaning is a HUGE diagnostic boost versus the old way of listening, feeling and guesstimating. It’s like a doctor having a patient who can tell them where it hurts, vs. a pediatrician working on a baby who doesn’t talk yet. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/42 "2015-05-13T17:04:28Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > do you know _why_ we’re at that point? because modern cars require little more than oil changes or brake work. > > it’s OK for modern cars to be hard to work on because for the most part they don’t need to be worked on. > > old people love to squawk about how cars back in the day were “better” because “you could work on them yourself.” They’re not intellectually honest enough to admit that the only reason it was better to be able to work on old cars was because old cars were enormous pieces of shit which always needed to be worked on. Some BMW models have sealed automatic transmissions-you cannot add fluid to them. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/43 "2015-05-13T17:26:15Z")
Owning the code, which the customer only leases is what made Microsoft very rich. \* Which is why some people run Linux or BSD. On the other hand a hell of a lot of car **[firmware](http://www.zdnet.com/article/2014-the-year-of-the-linux-car/)** ( especially **[infotainment](http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/12/12/ford-drops-microsofts-windows-embedded-enabling-support-for-apples-carplay-android-auto)** **[systems](http://europe.autonews.com/article/20140721/OEM10/307219986/can-linux-speed-in-car-systems?)** ) is now based on the Linux Kernel, so whilst they can charge what they like for their versions, they might have a FOSS fight on their hands if they claim others can’t modify their modified code. - Plus Bill and Larry — because their wallets are hurting — every now and then try to extend this model to the hardware the customer has bought. New Cloud is old Thin Computing writ large. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/44 "2015-05-13T17:56:34Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Some BMW models have sealed automatic transmissions-you cannot add fluid to them. Umm no. Many cars now don’t have transmission dipsticks, but every single one of them has the ability to add fluid. Think about it if they didn’t have a way to add fluid how would the car maker fill them up at the factory? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/45 "2015-05-13T20:07:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I for one I am shocked - shocked! - that Future Farmers of America is infringing on the rights of aircraft owners. 😃 > > Installing MS Word is not modifying the OS. And yes, they should be (and are) allowed to say you don’t own the _code_ to the OS so you can’t modify it. There’s a difference between modifying their code and replacing it with my own. People erase OSX and put Linux on their Macs all the time. What GM and John Deere are saying here goes beyond that. Copyright doesn’t give anyone the right to mandate what code runs on my own property. If Joe’s Garage hires a hotshot programmer to sell me custom code (which is not derived from GM’s factory installed program), that’s my own business. GM can void my warranty, but they should _not_ be able to sue me or charge me with a crime. EDIT: And I know with the DMCA, you can be charged with a crime for breaking copy protection (i.e., whatever bullshit they include to prevent me from installing my own program over theirs) even if you don’t violate copyright. That is the specific rationale GM and John Deere are using here and specifically what I disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/46 "2015-05-13T20:09:17Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > There’s a difference between modifying their code and replacing it with my own. People erase OSX and put Linux on their Macs all the time. What GM and John Deere are saying here goes beyond that. Copyright doesn’t give anyone the right to mandate what code runs on my own property. If Joe’s Garage hires a hotshot programmer to sell me custom code (which is not derived from GM’s factory installed program), that’s my own business. GM can void my warranty, but they should _not_ be able to sue me or charge me with a crime. I think the point was SOMEONE had to copy the code in order to modify it. And if so, then that mod could be considered a derivative work. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/47 "2015-05-13T20:28:38Z")
Dunno. The whole point of WINE — Wine Is Not An Emulator — is that it is _not_ a derivative work — it uses APIs etc. that do the same functionality as Windows would, in order to run programs [fortuitously] _designed for Windows_ [but not of Windows] on OSX or Linux or any other OS. However, someone would have had to take a look at those Windows components that ran the program in order to provide an equal functionality. Generally, looking at anything software or in the physical world for reverse-engineering is perfectly legal. I don’t use WINE hardly at all, since I don’t need Windows programs, and VirtualBox is nearby if I did, but one has to respect their skill. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/48 "2015-05-13T20:33:05Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I think the point was SOMEONE had to copy the code in order to modify it. And if so, then that mod could be considered a derivative work. No, they did not. They did not have to copy anything. Andrew Tannenbaum created Minix from scratch and Linus based Linux off of that. There is more free software out there than proprietary software – the vast majority was created from scratch or built upon earlier free software, not derived from proprietary code. With access to the ECU and a the tools to program it, a skilled programmer could possibly create a better program from scratch. And even if it isn’t better, I as the owner should have the right to use his program in lieu of the one GM included with the vehicle. They own their code, but it’s my car, my ECU, and my money on the line if I end up screwing things up. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/49 "2015-05-13T22:24:40Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > There’s a difference between modifying their code and replacing it with my own. People erase OSX and put Linux on their Macs all the time. What GM and John Deere are saying here goes beyond that. Copyright doesn’t give anyone the right to mandate what code runs on my own property. If Joe’s Garage hires a hotshot programmer to sell me custom code (which is not derived from GM’s factory installed program), that’s my own business. GM can void my warranty, but they should _not_ be able to sue me or charge me with a crime. > > EDIT: And I know with the DMCA, you can be charged with a crime for breaking copy protection (i.e., whatever bullshit they include to prevent me from installing my own program over theirs) even if you don’t violate copyright. That is the specific rationale GM and John Deere are using here and specifically what I disagree with. Hmmm. That _is_ an interesting distinction. I shall have to ponder this. Well, I plan to, anyway. More likely I’ll forget. But it’s still a good point. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/50 "2015-05-14T02:05:12Z")
> [@](#): > > How much does your average full service garage have to spend on a diagnostic computer unit these days to be able to cover all makes? You buy both the hardware, and then the software to put on it. This will cover most makes except some of the more oddball ones - I know we don’t do Saab, as an example. Currently the hardware would cost from $10,000 to $12,000. Software would run between $2,400 and $2,800 annually. We usually get an upgrade of the software every other year. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/51 "2015-05-14T03:44:14Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > You buy both the hardware, and then the software to put on it. This will cover most makes except some of the more oddball ones - I know we don’t do Saab, as an example. > > Currently the hardware would cost from $10,000 to $12,000. Software would run between $2,400 and $2,800 annually. We usually get an upgrade of the software every other year. That seems awfully expensive why not use a $50 dollar tool from Autozone instead? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/52 "2015-05-14T04:31:39Z")
Perhaps I’m getting ahead of the debate, splitting hairs, apples/oranges, whatever. But if GM and Deere get away with this, where does it end? Is Pandoras box opened? What if I put an aftermarket seat cover on a car still under warranty? A different grip on my pistol? A Corbin seat on my motorcycle? Do I relinquish possession of these things back to the manufacturer because I did something to it they don’t approve of? At what point does the “motorists don’t necessarily buy a car; they merely buy a license to use the car for the duration of its life” count for everything? Sounds crazy and over the top, but crazy and over the top has to start somewhere. Right? “motorists don’t necessarily buy a car; they merely buy a license to use the car for the duration of its life” Sorry, but theres something about it that just f\*cking bugs me!:mad: ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/53 "2015-05-14T05:45:47Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > That seems awfully expensive why not use a $50 dollar tool from Autozone instead? The reason why the $50 scan tool exists (or the $10 bluetooth phone adapter which is what I use mostly these days) is because the government mandates certain data be made available via the standard OBD-II port on all (post-'96) cars. The problem is that OBD-II mostly only deals with the engine. All of the other computerized systems cars have these days aren’t standardized, so to be truly full service you need a small collection of proprietary OEM scan tools, or one of the really expensive professional tools can do them all and comes with a suitcase full of connectors. Plus I’m guessing what **Daylate** is talking about also includes a repair info service like Alldata and maybe some sort of hour tracking/billing software. So stuff that’s maybe not critical to fixing cars, but important for fixing them with the minimum of fuss and actually running a shop. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/54 "2015-05-15T22:19:24Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Fuck this shit. … This bullshit needs to stop My feelings exactly! If it weren’t raining buckets, out be out working on the F’-in’ Jeep carb. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/55 "2015-05-15T23:22:09Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > The reason why the $50 scan tool exists (or the $10 bluetooth phone adapter which is what I use mostly these days) is because the government mandates certain data be made available via the standard OBD-II port on all (post-'96) cars. The problem is that OBD-II mostly only deals with the engine. All of the other computerized systems cars have these days aren’t standardized, so to be truly full service you need a small collection of proprietary OEM scan tools, or one of the really expensive professional tools can do them all and comes with a suitcase full of connectors. > > Plus I’m guessing what **Daylate** is talking about also includes a repair info service like Alldata and maybe some sort of hour tracking/billing software. So stuff that’s maybe not critical to fixing cars, but important for fixing them with the minimum of fuss and actually running a shop. yes but you don’t need a diagnostic tool to figure out the ball joints or the CV joint are shot. Few people are going to rebuild a transmission although some will pull one and send it out. It’s the crap in the middle that needs diagnostics and frankly a lot of that stuff either works or doesn’t. I just had to replace a heater control module on my car because the variable resistor inside it died. A quick trip to the junkyard and $15 replaced a $200 part. Not much labor involved but you get the general drift. It’s a huge cost savings for me to work on my own stuff. And sometimes mechanics won’t work outside the box. Fixed a friend of mine’s hybrid when the underbody wind panel (?) broke. All it took was a couple of rivets and a sheet of aluminum and it was back in business. They didn’t have the part and it basically grounded the car. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/56 "2015-05-16T00:06:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes but you don’t need a diagnostic tool to figure out the ball joints or the CV joint are shot. Few people are going to rebuild a transmission although some will pull one and send it out. > > It’s the crap in the middle that needs diagnostics and frankly a lot of that stuff either works or doesn’t. I just had to replace a heater control module on my car because the variable resistor inside it died. A quick trip to the junkyard and $15 replaced a $200 part. Not much labor involved but you get the general drift. > > It’s a huge cost savings for me to work on my own stuff. And sometimes mechanics won’t work outside the box. Fixed a friend of mine’s hybrid when the underbody wind panel (?) broke. All it took was a couple of rivets and a sheet of aluminum and it was back in business. They didn’t have the part and it basically grounded the car. This describes the situation exactly-you made a repair to a car using a non-factory part. A dealer would not do this-such a substitution would never be allowed. This is also a problem for people who want to keep old cars running. Parts for specialized makes will become harder to get. When a car gets to the point where junkyard parts are not available, the cars will be scrapped. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/57 "2015-05-16T00:34:21Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Owning the code, which the customer only leases is what made Microsoft very rich. \* > > Which is why some people run Linux or BSD. > On the other hand a hell of a lot of car **[firmware](http://www.zdnet.com/article/2014-the-year-of-the-linux-car/)** ( especially **[infotainment](http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/12/12/ford-drops-microsofts-windows-embedded-enabling-support-for-apples-carplay-android-auto)** **[systems](http://europe.autonews.com/article/20140721/OEM10/307219986/can-linux-speed-in-car-systems?)** ) is now based on the Linux Kernel, so whilst they can charge what they like for their versions, they might have a FOSS fight on their hands if they claim others can’t modify their modified code. > > - Plus Bill and Larry — because their wallets are hurting — every now and then try to extend this model to the hardware the customer has bought. New Cloud is old Thin Computing writ large. none of that has come to pass, and that appleinsider article is a load of horseshit. Of course, it comes from Daniel Eran Dilger, so it can’t help but be anything but a pile of drivel. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/58 "2015-05-16T01:57:05Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Still controversial and potentially disturbing, but we’re not talking about “You can’t change your own air filter” here. It could easily come to that if GM et al have their way. Hardware manufacturers are all too happy to use digital controls to prevent physical access by end users. By example, I cite printer manufacturers. They embed controller chips in their ink cartridges to prevent users from refilling them with third-party ink, and then attempted to use the DMCA (part of copyright law) to prevent anyone from circumventing the controller. Fortunately, [the printer companies lost](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_International,_Inc._v._Static_Control_Components,_Inc.). It seems likely that the same will be true if car manufacturers attempt similar control over replacement items. But it might have to go to court again. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/59 "2015-05-16T04:17:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And sometimes mechanics won’t work outside the box. I haven’t met a “mechanic” in years. I’ve encountered lots of “parts swappers”. They don’t bother to find the real problem, they just throw new (expensive) parts at the symptoms till they get it right. If ever. I want the problem fixed, not masked. I’ve been burned too often and now only fix my own shit (unless its a transmission or other serious tight tolerance stuff. Then, its just cheaper to buy a re-man and stick it in myself). If I don’t know how, I study and figure it out. I got nothing but tools, time and space. I manage to keep nearly 2 dozen vehicles up and running. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631/60 "2015-05-16T05:44:52Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > This describes the situation exactly-you made a repair to a car using a non-factory part. A dealer would not do this-such a substitution would never be allowed. This is also a problem for people who want to keep old cars running. Parts for specialized makes will become harder to get. When a car gets to the point where junkyard parts are not available, the cars will be scrapped. I’m not sure where you’re getting this from. It doesn’t get anymore factory than an original part from a junkyard car. The one I described had 3 different switches and I could swap the other 2 out so my $15 purchase was backed up with 2 spare parts from the old one. I’m $185 ahead plus the cost of installation. And the Junkyard gives about the same guarantee that new electronic parts get. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-it-be-illegal-to-work-on-your-own-car/719631.md?page=4)