# Should Jimmy Doolittle have Bombed the Imperial Palace in Tokyo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472 "2012-07-06T22:26:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/41 "2012-07-09T14:22:45Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Do you have a link to any evidence for this supposedly widespread opinion at the time? Judging from conversations with my Grandmother, I’d say it was rather common. My Uncle was killed during the war, so she may have been prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/42 "2012-07-09T14:25:47Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > During WW2 there was no sympathy wasted on Japs “Japs” has long been considered a slur against Japanese people. Please don’t use it again. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/43 "2012-07-09T14:31:10Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The Administration response was that, in order to be most effective, the raid concentrated on military targets and that loss of the Emperor would make Japan ungovernable and therefore unable to surrender. Good propaganda, but not what folks wanted to hear. Actually, if it was not what folks wanted to hear, then it was bad propaganda, or, more likely, not propaganda at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/44 "2012-07-09T14:36:49Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > that loss of the Emperor would make Japan ungovernable and therefore unable to surrender. It’s worth noting that something more or less like this turned out to be the case. The actual surrender was made by the Emperor himself, while military “super patriots” tried to depose him and carry on the war. > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > The same people later attempted a palace coup when the Emperor was about the broadcast a surrender. And that was after having two atomic bombs dropped on the home islands. The fanatics were hard-core in a way the Emperor was not. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/45 "2012-07-09T14:40:25Z")
Given that the Doolittle raid was 70 years ago now, doesn’t it rather make sense to view this situation with cool heads and think that it’s pretty obvious that the correct decision was made not to kill a powerless figurehead like the Japanese emperor, who would have been immediately replaced, wasting military resources? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/46 "2012-07-09T14:41:19Z")
Marley, I used it appropriately in it’s historical context. It is the least offensive of contemporary terms. I can give you a list if you wish. Avoiding offense of the “Japanese people” was of little concern to US citizens during the atrocities of the 1930s and 1940s. Their treatment of US citizen civilians was sub-human. They have done nothing to redeem themselves. Do you propose to selectively censor discussions of terms used in historical context? I did not notice any objection to the use of the term ‘Kraut’ above. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/47 "2012-07-09T14:42:46Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Bombing the Palace would have brought the war to Japan in an iconic manner. It was what the man on the street wanted at the time. During WW2 there was no sympathy wasted on Japs and the Emperor was the focal point of American propaganda. Do you suppose that a lot of military decisions were made at the time based on what the “man on the street wanted at the time”? And what men on the street were these? The ones reading comic books showing Superman threatening to give Tojo a sock on the nose? Why not let Superman handle it then instead of Doolittle? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/48 "2012-07-09T15:10:30Z")
Ascenray, The government sought to influence the man on the street with massive propaganda - much of it using the Emperor as the center piece. It was a two way street - the government needed popular support. WW2 was not a comic book war. We had been mobilizing since 1940 when the military The draft began. By early 1942 there were shortages of food and materials. Rationing went into effect in May and the national speed limit was imposed at 35 MPH in October. Between 1940 and 1946 I saw my father perhaps 6 times. Everybody was involved from the beginning. ‘Japanese persons’ and particularly the Emperor were not popular in 1942. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/49 "2012-07-09T16:33:43Z")
And why with the hindsight of 70 years do you seem to be expressing the wish that Hirohito had been killed in a bombing raid? Given the subsequent history of Japan and Hirohito’s reign, it seems to me that you might have a little bit more perspective on the question than you seem to be showing. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/50 "2012-07-09T16:35:15Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > I did not notice any objection to the use of the term ‘Kraut’ above. > > Crane I also found that to be curious. May I sill say, “Russkies”? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/51 "2012-07-09T16:47:04Z")
Ascenray, Not expressing a wish at all - simply exploring an alternative path of history. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/52 "2012-07-09T16:54:52Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Marley, > > I used it appropriately in it’s historical context. It is the least offensive of contemporary terms. I can give you a list if you wish. I have a better idea: skip the contemporary terms (i.e. slurs) in favor of terms that don’t have that kind of ugly baggage. I got the sense you were probably trying to use contemporary language rather than expressing your own view of the Japanese, but that was not completely clear. (I felt **DrFidelius** ’s “Kraut” comment was more obviously rhetorical.) That’s why I gave you a mod note instead of an official warning. In the future, don’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/53 "2012-07-09T17:14:19Z")
OK - however, it’s rather non-academic to discuss the time without it’s contemporary language. ie, Discussing ‘The “Japanese persons” attack on Pearl Harbor’ lacks the emotion of the time. An emotion that is vital to understanding the America of 1942. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/54 "2012-07-09T17:14:44Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Ascenray, > > Not expressing a wish at all - simply exploring an alternative path of history. > > Crane Nothing in your OP or subsequent posts supports this. If you were interested in exploring an alternate history, you would invite people to speculate about what might have happened if the emperor was killed in the raid, which which might have resulted in responses suggesting the war would have been prolonged rather than shortened. Instead, here you are claiming the American leadership made a mistake which prolonged the war, and you’ve done nothing but dismiss any disagreement with your predetermined conclusion. You have ignored my posts showing that the mission was planned as a night raid (making precision bombing impossible), that the Japanese were already building shelters. You have ignored other’s comments that the Japanese high command essentially felt the same way as the Americans did – if the emperor were removed there would be a higher barrier to peace, not a lower one. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/55 "2012-07-09T17:20:28Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > OK - however, it’s rather non-academic to discuss the time without it’s contemporary language. ie, Discussing ‘The “Japanese persons” attack on Pearl Harbor’ lacks the emotion of the time. An emotion that is vital to understanding the America of 1942. > > Crane Wow, what a load of bullshit this is! An academic would define the word “Jap” as a common slur used by Americans against the Japanese at the time, if trying to make a point about emotions during a time of war. An academic would _never_ simply use the term as a routine word in a narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/56 "2012-07-09T17:21:05Z")
Boyo, I haven’t ignored the posts, I simply have not yet responded. For the sake of argument, I will take the position that we should have bombed the palace and will respond shortly. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/57 "2012-07-09T17:21:22Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > OK - however, it’s rather non-academic to discuss the time without it’s contemporary language. ie, Discussing ‘The “Japanese persons” attack on Pearl Harbor’ lacks the emotion of the time. An emotion that is vital to understanding the America of 1942. That’s all well and good, but this is a message board, not an academic paper or a journal, and you’re not quoting from a primary source. Nobody’s asking you to say anything ridiculous like “The Japanese persons.” “The Japanese” is fine. “Japs” is not because at the time it quickly became a slur against both Japanese citizens and Japanese- or Asian-Americans, and it’s still recognized that way. You don’t need to use the slurs of the time to discuss the emotions people felt, and you can certainly make it clear that Americans were very angry at Japan without using language that can leave a reader with the impression that you might share those views. OK? I don’t want to take this discussion off-track. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/58 "2012-07-09T17:25:39Z")
OK-Thanks. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/59 "2012-07-09T17:33:03Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I very much doubt the US had any way of knowing whether the emperor was even residing at the palace at the time of the raid. Even if he was there, there surely would have been a sturdy bomb shelter they could have shoved him into in very short order. The odds would be astronomically against killing him. > > But one question this raises to me – if the raid _had_ killed him, would (could) they just cover it up? I’ve read all these stories that the vast majority of Japanese people never saw his face or even heard his voice until his surrender speech. I would think the US would know the truth in relatively short order through code breaking, but how long would it be until the Japanese people knew? This is probably quite accurate. Remember, after the Nagasaki bomb, the military was still not willing to surrender. It was the Emperor who made that decision, and shortly thereafter, there was a small, unsuccessful military uprising to take control of the government and continue the war. IIRC, a _condition_ for the _unconditional_ surrender was that the Emperor remain, happily residing in his palace. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/60 "2012-07-09T18:23:31Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Wow, what a load of bullshit this is! An academic would define the word “Jap” as a common slur used by Americans against the Japanese at the time, if trying to make a point about emotions during a time of war. An academic would _never_ simply use the term as a routine word in a narrative. Absolutely true today and for some time now. Something I found interesting in Samuel Eliot Morrison’s 15 volume _History of United States Naval Operations in World War II_ was his occasional use of the word Jap or Japs rather than Japanese in early volumes and its disappearance by later ones, except when quoting someone’s words during the war of course. He had personally served in operations in the Pacific during the war, and the 15 volumes were written from 1947-62. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472.md?page=4)