# Should Jimmy Doolittle have Bombed the Imperial Palace in Tokyo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472 "2012-07-06T22:26:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/61 "2012-07-09T19:42:04Z")
“Japan’s Meiji Constitution of 1889 defined the emperor as “sacred and inviolable” and placed him at the pinnacle of power: all legislative, executive, and judicial power. The Emperor was also the supreme military commander…” (\*Racing the Enemy \*Tsuyoshi Hasegawa) The Kokutai system defined Japan. For Doolittle to have struck the Palace Grounds directly would have been a tremendous boost to American morale and an equally devastating blow to that of the Japanese people. The Emperor was the Icon of Japan, not it’s industry. Such a blow would have caused major disruption within the chain of command. Disruption of the leadership could have been sufficient to precipitate a Communist take over of the government resulting in an immediate cessation of the war. Crane (Boyo - since we are discussing possible outcomes your points about planning are interesting but not pertinent) ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/62 "2012-07-09T20:28:25Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > . . . > > Disruption of the leadership could have been sufficient to precipitate a Communist take over of the government resulting in an immediate cessation of the war. > > Crane > ( Because? Do you really think Japan was without a line of succession in 1942? The idea that the communists would have marched in, unopposed, and taken control of Japan is not rational. The Russians didn’t want any part of that war until August, 1945 when they declared war on Japan, some 2 days after Hiroshima was bombed. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/63 "2012-07-09T20:39:25Z")
Morgenstern, Who said anything about Russia? Stalin was honoring a non-aggression treaty between Russia and Japan. There was a strong Communist movement in Japan. Disruption of the government might have been sufficient for a take over from within. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/64 "2012-07-09T21:04:14Z")
Do you suppose that the administration might have believed that there were good reasons not to facilitate a communist takeover of Japan? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/65 "2012-07-09T21:21:11Z")
That might have been the concern of some, but not the majority view of the Roosevelt administration. Russia was a partner of the US and the traditional enemy of Japan. The possibility of an early cessation of the war would have tipped the scales. Crane ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/66 "2012-07-09T21:31:38Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > There was a strong Communist movement in Japan. Disruption of the government might have been sufficient for a take over from within. I don’t think so. The communists had been crushed pretty mercilessly in the 20s and although they still existed underground to an extent, they weren’t of any significant influence. The only reference I remember coming across them in terms of WW2 is late in the war, when a number of conservative politicians around former prime minister Konoye feared that mass starvation would lead to a popular revolt against the government. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/67 "2012-07-09T21:45:16Z")
Exactly - disruption in the leadership would also have provided an opportunity. The Communists were a factor in post war elections. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/68 "2012-07-09T23:37:47Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Exactly - disruption in the leadership would also have provided an opportunity. The Communists were a factor in post war elections. > > Crane The Japanese communist party was a very small factor if at all. The party was illegal in WWII and membership subjected the member to sanctions. In fact, it wasn’t until the US occupied Japan, post war, that the party was legalized. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/69 "2012-07-09T23:42:21Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > “Japan’s Meiji Constitution of 1889 defined the emperor as “sacred and inviolable” and placed him at the pinnacle of power: all legislative, executive, and judicial power. The Emperor was also the supreme military commander…” (Racing the Enemy Tsuyoshi Hasegawa) The Kokutai system defined Japan. > > Disruption of the leadership could have been sufficient to precipitate a Communist take over of the government resulting in an immediate cessation of the war. You’re seriously misunderstanding the Emperor’s position, role and actual power in practice as opposed to what it was claimed to be in theory. He was **not** the supreme military commander, much less the head of all legislative, executive, and judicial power. His practical role was more to rubber stamp decisions already made; the Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal had far more practical power as the Emperor’s advisor than the Emperor himself did. To give you an idea, from [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dichi_Kido) > [@](#): > > Kido was the grandson of Kido Takayoshi, one of the leaders of the Meiji Restoration. A graduate of Kyoto University, he held numerous minor bureaucratic posts before becoming Minister of Education in the first Konoe cabinet (1937), and Home Minister in the Hiranuma Cabinet (1939). During the period from 1937 to 1939 Kido adopted the conspirator’s views and devoted himself to this policy wholeheartedly. As education minister he applied himself to the development of a warlike spirit in Japan. He was active with Konoye to replace existing political parties with a single party to dominate all political action. Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal (1940), he recommended to the Emperor that Fumimaro Konoe succeed Mitsumasa Yonai for a second term as Prime Minister of Japan. In 1941, he recommended that Hideki Tōjō become Prime Minister after Konoe. > > Kido was also one of the more cautious advisors to the emperor at the beginning of World War II (because he feared the powers of western allies), and one of the chief advocates of peace at the end (trying to ingratiate himself with the conquerors). Kido is known to have advised the emperor against attacking the Dutch East Indies in 1941, explaining that such an attack might provoke the United States into war, and that any oil obtained by taking the East Indies would still have to be transported, and would be subject to blockades and attacks by plane and submarine. Kido also claimed after the war that Emperor Hirohito was never aware of the plans to attack Pearl Harbor until after the attack occurred. Four years later, at the end of the war, Kido is generally credited with convincing the government to accept the Potsdam Declaration and surrender. He also convinced the emperor that it would be necessary to deliver a personal speech in order to ensure that all civilians and soldiers would cease fighting. The military had actual control of the government and most certainly did not take their orders from the Emperor nor even seek his approval. When the Army occupied Manchuria in 1931 the Emperor didn’t even know about it until it had already happened. On the militaries role in the [government](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_militarism) > [@](#): > > The Army and the Navy also had decisive say on the formation (and survival) of any civilian government. Since the law required that the posts of Army Minister and Navy Minister be filled by active duty officers nominated by their respective services, and since the law also required that a prime minister resign if he could not fill all of his cabinet posts, both the Army and the Navy had final say on the formation of a cabinet, and could bring down the cabinet at any time by withdrawing their minister and refusing to nominate a successor. In reality, while this tactic was used only one time (ironically to prevent a General, Kazushige Ugaki, from becoming Prime Minister in 1937), the threat always loomed high when the military made any demands on the civilian leadership. The leaders of the attempted coup prior to surrender intended to place the Emperor under house arrest and prevent the broadcast of his surrender speech. They felt they were doing so out of patriotism and reverence for the position of Emperor, acting against the expressed wishes of the Emperor in the name of his ‘true’ wishes. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/70 "2012-07-10T05:58:05Z")
If Hirohito were killed, the Japanese would have focused on a number of projects aimed at attacking the US civilian population in the mainland. There were the paper balloons intended o start forest fires in the pacific coast, and the pestilential fleas to be dropped from 6-engined seaplanes. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/71 "2012-07-10T12:52:56Z")
I differ significantly on some of the opinions in this thread. > [@Crane](#): > > Avoiding offense of the “Japanese people” was of little concern to US citizens during the atrocities of the 1930s and 1940s. Their treatment of US citizen civilians was sub-human. They have done nothing to redeem themselves. An argument I have recently seen advanced is that the very low surrender rate of Japanese soldiers during the island battles was not entirely due to a fanatical wish to die to preserve their honor, but also at least sometimes due to American troops more or less massacring those who did surrender, or were on the verge of surrendering, and their leadership largely turning a blind eye to the practice. Certainly that war was brutal on all sides, whether one considers a Japanese sniper in a spiderhole shooting some teenage Iowa farmboy, or an American with a flamethrower immolating a bunker full of draftee clerks fro Tokyo. The American firebombing campaign against Japanese cities did not do much to elevate our moral position or “redeem” us, either. This is not to say the Japanese were innocent in any way – clearly there are numerous documented cases of their war crimes. I am not saying the Americans were “as” guilty, but it seems likely that a certain amount of rose-colored glass tints our memory of our part in the war. > [@Crane](#): > > By early 1942 there were shortages of food and materials. Rationing went into effect in May and the national speed limit was imposed at 35 MPH in October. Rationing in the US was at least partly for psychological effect, and partly due to redistribution of key resources. There were shortages of some items, but in general, the US was producing so much of everything that most of the rationing was for a different purpose than one might think: > [@](#): > > Historians have questioned how important rationing was for the war effort, but most agree that it was an important psychological measure to create a sense of sacrifice at home. ([cite](http://www.americancenturies.mass.edu/collection/itempage.jsp?itemid=13166&img=0&level=beginner&transcription=0)) > [@Crane](#): > > For Doolittle to have struck the Palace Grounds directly would have been a tremendous boost to American morale and an equally devastating blow to that of the Japanese people. The Emperor was the Icon of Japan, not it’s industry. The Japanese leadership was aghast at the raid, which could have killed the Emperor even by accident. A long-standing argument between factions as to which course of action to take was immediately settled in favor of Yamamoto’s plan to invade Midway (they saw Midway as the weak spot in their island perimeter through which the attack had come). Given that they _immediately_ made a fatal blunder out of fear for the Emperor’s safety (more correctly, fear of being thought to be unconcerned for the Emperor’s safety), it’s hard for me to believe that coming measurably closer to hitting the Emperor by hitting the palace grounds would have made much difference. > [@the\_diego](#): > > If Hirohito were killed, the Japanese would have focused on a number of projects aimed at attacking the US civilian population in the mainland. There were the paper balloons intended o start forest fires in the pacific coast, and the pestilential fleas to be dropped from 6-engined seaplanes. I think they focused on those programs anyway. It’s not like they decided to let up on America because Doolittle _missed_ the Emperor, is it? Both sides spent the war doing their utmost to hurt each other – they weren’t holding back some special extra anger that would have been unleashed if we’d done something different. . ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/72 "2012-07-10T12:57:30Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > …pestilential fleas to be dropped from 6-engined seaplanes. That’s right up there with fire bearing bats dropped from B-29s! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/73 "2012-07-10T21:44:51Z")
The raid inflicted very little damage, and it exposed the USN to enormous risk-what if the carrier (Wasp) was sunk? Also, the reaction of the IJA was severe-they went on a rampage in China-many Chinese civilians lost their lives because of this. Yes, it boosted US moral (to launch an attack on the Japanese home islands)…but was it sound judgement to have done so? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/74 "2012-07-10T22:05:29Z")
The carrier Wasp was at no risk at all from this mission, as it had no role in it. You are thinking of another carrier/flying bug, the Hornet. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/75 "2012-07-10T22:17:32Z")
Thanks! Wasp…Hornet, Iceberg, Goldberg…whatever:D ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/76 "2012-07-11T01:15:20Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The raid inflicted very little damage, and it exposed the USN to enormous risk-what if the carrier (Wasp) was sunk? The awakened giant had to do something. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/77 "2012-07-11T12:25:31Z")
Yeah, it was basically a stunt. The US could not have foreseen that the Japanese would make a war-altering blunder (Midway) in response to a scattering of bombs (most residents of Tokyo were _unaware_ of the attack – talk about a pinprick!). It’s not like Nimitz said to himself, “If we drop a few bombs here and there, they’ll wreck their navy!” But it was something we could do directly to the heart of their empire, not the fringe, very early on. And while it did risk the carriers to some degree, it wasn’t that big a risk. In those early days of the war, carriers could count on the vastness of the ocean and on acting unpredictably to hide pretty effectively until they got close to land-based planes. And indeed, it was at the fringe of the land-based air umbrella that Halsey launched his bombers and turned away. Japanese early-warning craft might have spotted him, and he didn’t want to give the land-based air any time to react and sink his carriers. So he acted to minimize the risk to the priceless carriers, even though that exposed the raid aircrews to greater risk (by extending their flight to the edge of their fuel range). Lastly, although it wasn’t much, it was doing _something_ with the carriers. Unused assets might as well be sunk. This lesson was re-learned at Guadalcanal, where the American Marines had terrible difficulties with the Japanese navy running in reinforcements, and even bombarding the Marine positions with battleships and cruisers. The naval commander, Robert L. Ghormely, was unwilling to risk major fleet units in the confined waters off Guadalcanal, deterred by the threat of land-based air and aggressive Japanese surface forces. Finally he was sacked and replaced with Bill Halsey. Halsey immediately asked the Marine commander, Vandegrift, what he needed. Vandegrift essentially told him the Navy had to shoulder some of the risk, rather than sheltering itself at cost to the Marines. Halsey committed his carriers to action and within 8 days of taking command fought the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands, losing _Hornet_ and suffering major damage to _Enterprise_, but damaging both Japanese carriers in the action and inflicting crippling losses on Japan’s irreplaceable elite airmen. Worse was to follow. In a series of confusing night surface actions, the US Navy lost numbers of cruisers and destroyers and even had a battleship shot up. Several of these actions were outright defeats for the Americans, and two admirals were killed closing with the enemy in the most Nelsonian style (Daniel Callaghan and Norman Scott) . The Japanese also suffered major losses in these fights. So many ships were sunk, the area acquired the nickname Ironbottom Sound. Despite the mixed tactical results of the Navy’s intervention, the cumulative effect was to take the pressure off the Marines, who went on to win the Guadalcanal campaign, kicking off the island-hopping offensive that would eventually win the war. Lesson: _sometimes_ even the major fleet units have to be risked, even lost, for anything to be gained. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/78 "2012-07-11T17:07:54Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > But it was something we could do directly to the heart of their empire, not the fringe, very early on. The effect on American morale of doing something this audacious and succeeding shouldn’t be taken too lightly either. Before the raid news from the war had been nothing but a gloomy string of defeats: Pearl Harbor, Guam, Wake Island, the Philippines, Corregidor starving and under siege waiting to fall, and the Battle of the Java Sea just to name some American defeats. The only positive propaganda spin the US public had heard thus far was of sacrifice in defeat, both real (the Marines at Wake Island) and mostly fiction ([Colin Kelly](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Kelly) crashing his damaged B-17 into and sinking the battleship\* Haruna\*). ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/79 "2012-07-11T22:53:00Z")
You bomb a palace, you basically bomb a sturdy pile of rocks. What do you hope to achieve? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472/80 "2012-07-11T22:56:15Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > You bomb a palace, you basically bomb a sturdy pile of rocks. What do you hope to achieve? Piss off the Bad Guys. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-jimmy-doolittle-have-bombed-the-imperial-palace-in-tokyo/627472.md?page=5)