# Should Joe Paterno be fired now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-joe-paterno-be-fired-now/602432 "2011-11-09T21:51:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-joe-paterno-be-fired-now/602432/61 "2011-11-12T18:43:15Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I have never walked in on someone abusing a child and hope I never do. And you may be right that none of us know how we might have reacted, but here’s the thing. > > I believe I do know what I’d have done after the fact, because I know what I have done when I’ve made a mistake far less harmful than the ones we’re talking about here. I apologized. I owned up. I tried to make amends. I lost sleep over yelling at my step son when I caught him stealing quarters from our coin jar. I apologized to him for not handling that better and sought his forgiveness. > > So, with respect, you may be right. Maybe I would have put my position and my paycheck ahead of the welfare of the boy I saw being abused. Maybe I would have had no problem sleeping at night every time I saw Sandusky being interviewed about his good selfless deeds at the second mile. Maybe I would have greeted him with a wave and a smile every time I saw him at the PSU Facility. But I just don’t really think I could. I sincerely hope I never have to learn that I could behave with such indifference. And dare I say, cowardice. We have no evidence at all Sandusky was treated by him with a wink and a smile. He could have easily avoided him at all costs, just felt the situation was more powerful than he was. I stand by my story that any one of us could’ve reacted the same way. It goes in line with too many other things I’ve experienced and seen others experience but on a much smaller scale: freezing under pressure, diffusion of responsibility, fear of authority, and hoping it goes away. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-joe-paterno-be-fired-now/602432/62 "2011-11-13T00:02:31Z")
Freezing under pressure and diffusion of responsibility do not excuse people from failing to do their moral duty. McQueary had 9 years to follow up on his report to Paterno. Paterno had 9 years to follow up on his report to Curley and Schultz. Curley and Schultz’s response to a report of child rape was to take away the rapist’s keys. None of those people took any moment in the past 9 years to say “hey, we really need to do more here.” That makes them morally culpable in this crime. There was plenty of opportunity for a number of powerful people to correct a failure to intervene at the moment of a crime . Those powerful people did nothing. They are morally guilty. ---
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-joe-paterno-be-fired-now/602432/63 "2011-11-16T03:01:02Z")
Last week I tried to argue a point that it was human of Mcqueary to freeze while he was in the shower. Many posters argued that they without of doubt would have done something as well as most people. To counter-argue I present this ESPN article published today which includes an interview with a former FBI psychological profiler/Child abuse whistleblower Jane Turner and her take on the situation. The article is [here](http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7237700/in-penn-state-child-sexual-abuse-scandal-there-no-easy-answers-assistant-mike-mcqueary) and her part is in the third section. Here are some excerpts: > [@](#): > > “All of them give you a tremendous amount of power, adulation and glory. There was nothing better than to flash my creds and say ‘FBI.’ [McQueary] had the same things. The power. The glory. People think you’re something special. And it becomes your family. The FBI was my substance, my identity. It was everything. He had the exact same thing.” > > While it isn’t known what happened in the shower between McQueary and Sandusky, Turner said that given her expertise it would have been “100 percent normal” for McQueary to freeze, panic and shut down after seeing what he said he saw. > [@](#): > > “You’re trying to comprehend something your brain can’t handle,” Turner said. “You can’t rationalize it. Compute it. Handle it. Most people turn around and walk away. And then they try to figure out, ‘Oh my God. What the hell did I just see?’ The people who say they would go in there and break it up? They’re wrong. Nine times out of 10, that’s just not how the human brain works.” > [@](#): > > It also has been reported that even after the incident, McQueary continued to be a supporter of Sandusky at various charity events. Despite all the uncertainty, questions and criticism, Turner understands why a whistleblower might choose to go silent. > > “As time passes, you’re not going to rock the boat. You’re not going to do that. It’s your family. Your life. Your career. Your self-identity. Put it on the line and you’re going to get destroyed,” Turner said. “You walk away from everything. How many people have a moral compass in which they are truly willing to do that? Damn few. Because they get vilified.” > [@](#): > > With the information that has been made available to the public thus far, Turner said she doesn’t view McQueary as a hero or a villain. Like many whistleblowers, she said, the answer is somewhere in between. > > “He’s a whistleblower with feet of clay,” she said. “He’s not perfect. He’s not a saint. He’s a human being. And he has to live with that.” I stand by my previous argument: ANYONE OF US COULD HAVE ACTED THE SAME WAY. You cannot predict your actions in a situation like that, just hope you make the right one. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-joe-paterno-be-fired-now/602432/64 "2011-11-16T03:20:40Z")
Again, you continue to miss the point. Whether or not “any one of us” would have walked away from the anal rape of a 10-year-old boy does not negate the fact that McQueary did nothing FOR NINE YEARS after walking away from the anal rape of a 10-year-old boy. The only thing he did was inform his boss and his dad, and then sit back, with no follow-up to say “hey, you know that rape thing? Maybe we should call the cops?” Joe Paterno who was informed by McQueary, a man he obviously found credible enough to hire as his wide receivers coach, did nothing FOR NINE YEARS after hearing about sexual contact between Sandusky and a 10-year-old boy. The only HE did was inform his boss and the VP of finance and then sit back after he’d been told that Sandusky’s keys had been taken away from him. Paterno didn’t say “hey, you know? We should maybe call the cops?” Quit trying to excuse McQueary. He either walked away from a child rape and didn’t fulfill his moral obligation to ensure that an investigation was conducted, or (as he is now claiming) he stopped a child rape and then didn’t fulfill his moral obligation to ensure that an investigation was conducted. Regardless of whether or not he, or we, would have, should have, or could have intervened at that moment, the fact remains that multiple grown men DID NOT FIX THIS MORAL FAILING. For nine years. ---
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-joe-paterno-be-fired-now/602432/65 "2011-11-16T03:33:58Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Again, you continue to miss the point. Whether or not “any one of us” would have walked away from the anal rape of a 10-year-old boy does not negate the fact that McQueary did nothing FOR NINE YEARS after walking away from the anal rape of a 10-year-old boy. The only thing he did was inform his boss and his dad, and then sit back, with no follow-up to say “hey, you know that rape thing? Maybe we should call the cops?” > > Joe Paterno who was informed by McQueary, a man he obviously found credible enough to hire as his wide receivers coach, did nothing FOR NINE YEARS after hearing about sexual contact between Sandusky and a 10-year-old boy. The only HE did was inform his boss and the VP of finance and then sit back after he’d been told that Sandusky’s keys had been taken away from him. Paterno didn’t say “hey, you know? We should maybe call the cops?” > > Quit trying to excuse McQueary. He either walked away from a child rape and didn’t fulfill his moral obligation to ensure that an investigation was conducted, or (as he is now claiming) he stopped a child rape and then didn’t fulfill his moral obligation to ensure that an investigation was conducted. > > Regardless of whether or not he, or we, would have, should have, or could have intervened at that moment, the fact remains that multiple grown men DID NOT FIX THIS MORAL FAILING. For nine years. You did not read the excerpts. This was one of the quotes > [@](#): > > It also has been reported that even after the incident, McQueary continued to be a supporter of Sandusky at various charity events. Despite all the uncertainty, questions and criticism, Turner understands why a whistleblower might choose to go silent. > > “As time passes, you’re not going to rock the boat. You’re not going to do that. It’s your family. Your life. Your career. Your self-identity. Put it on the line and you’re going to get destroyed,” Turner said. “You walk away from everything. How many people have a moral compass in which they are truly willing to do that? Damn few. Because they get vilified.” Nobody is excusing him. My interest is in the psychology of this. My gut told me that this vilification was too much, that many of the people doing the vilifying, despite how great they feel their moral compass is, would very likely do the same damn thing when the heat is on. You want to know why he let it go for 9 years, read the quote I just gave you. When your done read it again, then picture yourself in his shoes, working that job. Whistleblower is not a fun career path. If you want to hang on the fact that this person is below the level of most people, that’s fine, but I don’t like to be naive. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-joe-paterno-be-fired-now/602432/66 "2011-11-16T03:41:40Z")
Yep, I’m hanging on to my belief that most people would actually NOT continue to work with a pedophile while knowing that pedophile continues to have access to little boys, access that is related directly to my job and the people with whom I work. I don’t consider that naive at all - I consider it realistic based on the fact that in real life, plenty of people have sacrificed themselves and their careers to blow the whistle on things that are not nearly as heinous as child rape. I read the excerpts. I disagree with them. ---
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-joe-paterno-be-fired-now/602432/67 "2011-11-16T03:55:29Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Yep, I’m hanging on to my belief that most people would actually NOT continue to work with a pedophile while knowing that pedophile continues to have access to little boys, access that is related directly to my job and the people with whom I work. I don’t consider that naive at all - I consider it realistic based on the fact that in real life, plenty of people have sacrificed themselves and their careers to blow the whistle on things that are not nearly as heinous as child rape. > > I read the excerpts. I disagree with them. Yes, many people have blown the whistle. But how many haven’t? And why haven’t they? This is a nasty topic for people to talk about because it exposes flaws in humans. Everyone like to think they would put on their superman cape and do something out of instinct. Maybe I’m just too world-weary but I stopped believing in superheroes a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-joe-paterno-be-fired-now/602432/68 "2011-11-16T04:08:27Z")
Also, this is a guy who had idolized Joe Paterno for a decade at the time of the incident. When your hero tells you to leave it alone, a lot of people will leave it alone. It’s not that hard to understand why somebody could let it go for so long, if you want to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-joe-paterno-be-fired-now/602432/69 "2011-11-16T04:10:59Z")
> [@eman77](#): > > Also, this is a guy who had idolized Joe Paterno for a decade at the time of the incident. When your hero tells you to leave it alone, a lot of people will leave it alone. > > It’s not that hard to understand why somebody could let it go for so long, if you want to understand. I do understand. I still condemn him for it. Believe it or not, I can disagree with his behavior and think it’s vile and worth condemning, while at the same time understanding where it comes from. And it doesn’t take a superhero to pick up the phone and call the police when you witness an actual rape of a child. It just takes someone with a normally-developed morality. ---
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-joe-paterno-be-fired-now/602432/70 "2011-11-16T06:01:31Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > I do understand. I still condemn him for it. > > Believe it or not, I can disagree with his behavior and think it’s vile and worth condemning, while at the same time understanding where it comes from. > > And it doesn’t take a superhero to pick up the phone and call the police when you witness an actual rape of a child. It just takes someone with a normally-developed morality. This is exactly what I’m arguing. I am arguing that somebody can have a normally-developed morality and still end up doing what he did. I’m not doubting that you can disagree with his behavior and still think it’s vile, but there are more factors at play here than just a normally-functioning moral compass. Someone who despises child rapists (read: a normal person) can still end up in the situation he did. This is why the quote I listed before was so important in understanding why he did not alert the authorities for many years. His family, his life, his career. He already got this far, it’s much easier to turn away. When you have 1000 pounds pushing you in a direction, that’s the direction people generally follow. Will some people say “enough is enough” and blow the whistle, of course. But not everybody. And a lot of these people surely have normal moral beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-joe-paterno-be-fired-now/602432/71 "2011-11-16T06:08:09Z")
> [@eman77](#): > > This is exactly what I’m arguing. I am arguing that somebody can have a normally-developed morality and still end up doing what he did. I think the point here is that even if your morality is “properly developed,” if you do what McQueary supposedly did, you’ve put that sense of morality aside. The point is that regardless of your career path or relationship with your mentor or whatever else, it’s a major lapse in judgment and conscientiousness, and there’s no individual factor that excuses it. You’re either able to put things in the proper perspective and be mindful of what is really important (a serious crime is occurring) regardless of your personal circumstances or you aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-joe-paterno-be-fired-now/602432/72 "2011-11-16T16:22:35Z")
Anticipating an objection to the way I worded the above: What I’m saying is not that I’d never do what McQueary is supposed to have done. I can’t really know that; I can only think of one circumstance in my life that was even vaguely similar. But I do think that someone in circumstances very similar to McQueary - a young person being supervised by a mentor he trusts completely - could have done more than McQueary did, and people in positions similar to the university brass and Paterno could have just as easily followed up on this issue and made sure the police got involved. It’s not the circumstances that caused them to fail to make sure this abuse stopped and never happened again. It was failures by those people as individuals, and while other people have failed in similar situations in the past and will in the future, people have also figured out the right thing and done it at greater cost to themselves. It’s fair to point out that there are reasons people do screwed up things like failing to tell the police about a child molester, but it’s also reasonable to criticize these people for their failures. It’s not a mistake everybody would make and I’m not sure it’s one that most people would make. It involves badly losing sight of what is really important. Anybody can do that, but it doesn’t mean anyone would do that in a situation like this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-joe-paterno-be-fired-now/602432.md?page=3)