# Should Lavabit and Groklaw have shut down because of the NSA?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 21, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767 "2013-08-21T00:56:30Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/1 "2013-08-21T00:56:30Z")
[This editorial argues no,](http://pandodaily.com/2013/08/20/why-shutting-down-groklaw-lavabit-and-silent-circle-was-a-bad-move/) using (among other things) the “letting the terrorists win” style argument, wondering who else is going to fight the fight the operators want to have fought if not them, and saying that (in Groklaw’s case) the NSA’s alleged actions doesn’t change their legal position.
Obviously, these site operators can do whatever they want with their stuff, and maybe they didn’t feel like becoming martyrs, but what do you think?
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/2 "2013-08-21T04:51:07Z")
We don’t know what Lavabit was asked to do, and it isn’t allowed to say; that makes it hard to judge what it was except it was probably something pretty awful. The writer says that:
> [@](#):
>
> Instead, level with your customers, tell them what the government is capable of doing, and allow them make up their own minds as to whether to do business with you or not.
Lavabit was forbidden from doing that.
Also:
> [@](#):
>
> You probably didn’t stop flying because you have to go through airport screeners, take off your shoes, let your laptop be X-rayed and your luggage possibly rummaged through by security personnel.
Actually, I have; I don’t need to fly, and have no interest in flying under the present “security” aka harassment regime.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/3 "2013-08-21T09:42:21Z")
As stated before, I find it hard to sympathize with the fact that companies which apparently exist in order to help their customers break the law, are deciding to shut down rather than comply with federal investigations into said lawbreaking.
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### Author:  [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/4 "2013-08-21T11:16:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> As stated before, I find it hard to sympathize with the fact that companies which apparently exist in order to help their customers break the law, are deciding to shut down rather than comply with federal investigations into said lawbreaking.
Cite that Groklaw meets this definition please.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/5 "2013-08-21T11:43:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> As stated before, I find it hard to sympathize with the fact that companies which apparently exist in order to help their customers break the law, are deciding to shut down rather than comply with federal investigations into said lawbreaking.
Privacy is against the law now?
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### Author:  [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/6 "2013-08-21T11:51:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> As stated before, I find it hard to sympathize with the fact that companies which apparently exist in order to help their customers break the law, are deciding to shut down rather than comply with federal investigations into said lawbreaking.
As pointed out above, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
Cite, or apology, or confession to being a cheap smear artist.
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### Author:  [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/7 "2013-08-21T12:02:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> I find it hard to sympathize with the fact that companies which apparently exist in order to help their customers
:dubious:
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### Author:  [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/8 "2013-08-21T12:09:58Z")
seeking privacy = law breaking?
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### Author:  [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/9 "2013-08-21T12:16:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> As stated before, I find it hard to sympathize with the fact that companies which apparently exist in order to help their customers break the law, are deciding to shut down rather than comply with federal investigations into said lawbreaking.
Groklaw’s a website dedicated to offering legal commentary on issues related to the open source community, specifically the SCO vs. IBM case, but has since expanded to discussing other topics after the verdict in that case was delivered. It’s got nothing to do with breaking the law, or helping others to break the law. It’s a place where lawyers and other interested parties meet to discuss various topics, mostly mundane.
Having said that, I’m still not sure why Groklaw is shutting down. E-mail is compromised (who knew?) therefore a site discussing legal topics related to FOSS must shut down. I don’t get the connection, especially as there’s ways of communicating anonymously that a community steeped in the ways of open source software would be able to use quite readily. I’ve read the post announcing the closure twice and it still doesn’t get any clearer, it’s just a sprawling, rambling mess bouncing from talking about a burglary, to 9/11, to how the Internet is dead.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/10 "2013-08-21T13:14:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Privacy is against the law now?
This has nothing to do with privacy. Stealing secrets from the government, fleeing the country, and then leaking them to the press is against the law, and Lavabit existed to help people do things like that.
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### Author:  [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/11 "2013-08-21T13:26:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> This has nothing to do with privacy. Stealing secrets from the government, fleeing the country, and then leaking them to the press is against the law, and Lavabit existed to help people do things like that.
And Groklaw’s role in all of this is precisely? We’re all waiting to hear.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/12 "2013-08-21T13:29:12Z")
> [@tagos](#):
>
> And Groklaw’s role in all of this is precisely? We’re all waiting to hear.
I wasn’t discussing Groklaw. As far as I can tell, they haven’t been asked to do anything and they’re shutting down just because. Apparently, the notion that the government can read things you post on a website on the internet took them completely by surprise.
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### Author:  [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/13 "2013-08-21T13:29:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> This has nothing to do with privacy. Stealing secrets from the government, fleeing the country, and then leaking them to the press is against the law, and Lavabit existed to help people do things like that.
Lavabit existed to help people communicate privately. Like, say, confidential emails between attorney and client.
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### Author:  [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/14 "2013-08-21T13:35:20Z")
PJ was complicit in allegations that Microsoft had done things that made the Baby Jesus cry.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/15 "2013-08-21T13:38:11Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#):
>
> Lavabit existed to help people communicate privately. Like, say, confidential emails between attorney and client.
1. They also helped people commit treason, like Edward Snowden.
2. Lavabit does not have the legal authority to determine what constitutes privileged communication. If they were served an order to open certain documents to the government and they refused it, then they’re the ones breaking the law, not the government.
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### Author:  [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/16 "2013-08-21T13:48:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> This has nothing to do with privacy. Stealing secrets from the government, fleeing the country, and then leaking them to the press is against the law, and Lavabit existed to help people do things like that.
I see that you chose “confession” (with a side order of abject nonsense in that first sentence).
Alas, in this case it won’t do any good for your soul.
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### Author:  [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/17 "2013-08-21T13:49:26Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#):
>
> Having said that, I’m still not sure why Groklaw is shutting down.
Obviously not, since we learned from the Lavabit case that it’s illegal for them to give their side of the story.
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### Author:  [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/18 "2013-08-21T13:57:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> 1. They also helped people commit treason, like Edward Snowden.
You don’t know the meaning of the word “treason”.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/19 "2013-08-21T14:18:36Z")
> [@Grumman](#):
>
> You don’t know the meaning of the word “treason”.
Treason is the act of betraying one’s country, specifically by providing aid and comfort to its enemies. Snowden stole information from our government and made it accessible to people who can use that knowledge to better plan attacks against this country and its people in secrecy. He’s a traitor.
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### Author:  [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lavabit-and-groklaw-have-shut-down-because-of-the-nsa/666767/20 "2013-08-21T14:32:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> Treason is the act of betraying one’s country, specifically by providing aid and comfort to its enemies. Snowden stole information from our government and made it accessible to people who can use that knowledge to better plan attacks against this country and its people in secrecy. He’s a traitor.
If you’re going to disregard the First Rule of Holes, I have a request.
When you get to China, pick up some egg foo yung for me.
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