# Should Leslie Van Houten (Manson Family) Be Paroled? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2006, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824 "2006-06-08T00:44:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/141 "2010-07-07T22:37:43Z")
Why should I believe a word that Tex Watson says? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/142 "2010-07-07T23:28:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Normal people cannot carve up a nine months pregnant woman with a knife for no reason (literally, for NO reason). Neither did Van Houten. You have no idea whether she’s a psychopath or sociopath. I don’t at all dismiss her as a misunderstood confused girl, I don’t discount that she was under the influence of hallucinogens, told what she was doing was right, and was probably in fear of her life if she didn’t. I don’t think she was a sociopath so much as a- pardon the technical term- thoroughly fucked up and easily led individual who deserved to die for her crimes. I really don’t care if she finds a cure for cancer, AIDS and the common cold and heals the blind in prison, personally I don’t think release should ever have been an option, but, IT IS, and my problem with her not getting parole is less the fact it punishes a woman who may or may not be remorseful now but the fact the fame/infamy of the crimes, not the crimes themselves, is most likely the reason for her non release. Personally I’d reward her good behavior by moving her to a minimum security prison and awarding her more privileges within the prison perhaps- good behavior deserves some reward if only to encourage other prisoners to emulate it. I also think somebody who’s been in prison for 41 years could never possibly hope to cope on the outside- computers filled up offices when she was last free and had all the functionality of a $20 calculator, and she hasn’t paid a bill or cooked a meal for herself since Nixon was president, it would almost be MORE punishment to release her at this stage, BUT they shouldn’t go through the charade of a parole hearing if it’s never going to be a possible option no matter what she does. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why should I believe a word that Tex Watson says? There were no witnesses to the murders other than members of the Manson family. Even Kasabian, who was the state’s key witness, was tripping on acid while there. Watson has no real reason to lie and he has not denied his own acts in decades- he admits to stabbing Tate’s pregnant stomach and knows there is no way he’ll ever be released, and he’s had no contact with Van Houten in more than 30 years so it’s not like they’re chums. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/143 "2010-07-07T23:31:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why should I believe a word that Tex Watson says? There were no witnesses to the murders other than members of the Manson family. Even Kasabian, who was the state’s key witness, was tripping on acid while there. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/144 "2010-07-07T23:32:56Z")
Do you feel the same about Manson himself? Should he be paroled? He did less than Van Houten did. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/145 "2010-07-07T23:34:30Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > There were no witnesses to the murders other than members of the Manson family. Even Kasabian, who was the state’s key witness, was tripping on acid while there. Then we don’t know who stuck who, and we have to assume they’re all equally guilty. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/146 "2010-07-07T23:43:47Z")
I’ve heard that the majority of murders get out after 20 or so years. A lady at my job was killed in a domestic argument with her bf right after I started work in 1986. He had a knife and she got stabbed during the fight. He was out on parole in 2001. 15 years. Van Houten has already served nearly double the typical time then most. Only because of the notoriety of the crimes. Far worse criminals have served time and are on the streets. There’s not enough prisons to hold every murderer, rapist, and pedo. Sooner or later they get out. Studies show that people are less violent as they age. A guy that kills someone at 22 probably wouldn’t repeat the crime at 56. She deserves a chance in a half way house. See how she does. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/147 "2010-07-08T00:23:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Do you feel the same about Manson himself? Should he be paroled? He did less than Van Houten did. There is absolutely no psychologist or psychiatrist or advocate of any kind on earth who would declare with a straight face that Manson is anything other than criminally insane. He is not only not remorseful, he has never conceded he had anything to do with the murders, and during his time in prison he has done nothing constructive or anything that remotely signifies he would not be a threat on the outside. That said, I’d have little problem with him being sent to a hospital for the C.I. (which is far more like a prison than a mental ward), and yes, if the law is that he must have parole hearings, he should be given due consideration (though in the past he has failed to attend several and in fact in the 1960s long before Spahn Ranch he specifically asked not to be paroled). As for doing less than Van Houten did, it’s true that he did not do any of the murders or attacks himself; he was, IIRC, convicted of conspiracy to commit murder. Convicting him was a masterpiece on Bugliosi’s because it was not easy. Had conviction failed they probably would have moved in to conspiracy on the Gary Hinman murder or the black drug dealer Charlie bragged of killing [not sure if it was witnessed] or enough felony theft and drug convictions to tie him down for life, but getting him for Tate-Labianca prevented the need for that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/148 "2010-07-08T00:53:23Z")
I don’t believe Van Houten is capable or remorse either, and her attempts to minimize her roles in the murders strike me as purel self-serving. I don’t believe her. I don’t trust her, but beyond that, her crimes merit life in prison regardless of what kind of person she becomes (or in my opinion, _pretends_ to become behind bars. A lower security prison with increased privileges as a reward for good behavior – that I’m fine with. Freedom, never. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/149 "2010-07-08T01:09:51Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Thanks LDS. While I am not one to usually defend the Mormon (LDS) religion, I think you mean “Thanks a majority of California voters”… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/150 "2010-07-08T01:21:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t believe Van Houten is capable or remorse either, and her attempts to minimize her roles in the murders strike me as purel self-serving. I don’t believe her. I don’t trust her, but beyond that, her crimes merit life in prison regardless of what kind of person she becomes (or in my opinion, _pretends_ to become behind bars. Since you seem to be an expert at analyzing from afar with a minimum amount of information, perhaps you can help me with a small problem. I’m getting cramps in my upper left leg in the middle of the night, usually around 2am or so. I really don’t think it’s a vitamin deficiency. Can you help me, Dr. the Cynic? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/151 "2010-07-08T01:23:51Z")
It doesn’t take a special degree to know that the Manson murders were psychpathic acts. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/152 "2010-07-08T01:25:01Z")
Incidentally, if Van Houten were a man, I don’t believe she’d be getting any sympathy at all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/153 "2010-07-08T01:25:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It doesn’t take a special degree to know that the Manson murders were psychpathic acts. Nope-it just takes a specialist trained in that field, Doc. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/154 "2010-07-08T01:29:41Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > As a gay man what appalls me is that Van Houten married (and divorced) in prison. Tex Watson married in prison and has four kids from conjugal visits. Susan Atkins married _twice_ while in prison, and while she’s famous for saying “I have no mercy for you bitch” as Tate was stabbed she herself got to die while her husband was in the room. These were all completely legally recognized unions performed for people who had been- rightly- on Death Row, for whom there was absolutely no hope they’d ever contribute anything to society and whose incarcerations and trials actually cost millions and millions to the state, yet they were all guaranteed full marital rights as the SCotUS has TWICE upheld the rights of prisoners, regardless of their crimes, to marry. > However, the same state in which they all live voted to outlaw all unions by gays. This means that a gay couple that has been together for 50 years or more (such as Del and Phyllis) and productive and not a drain on society but contributing tax-paying members had less rights than convicted mass murderers. Thanks LDS. Just for the record… Prop 8 didn’t outlaw all gay unions. Anyone married between when the courts allowed SSM and when Prop 8 passed is still married. We also have a very strong Domestic Partnership law. Yeah, I know we’re not perfect, but if you’re gay, there are a lot worse places to live in the US than CA. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/155 "2010-07-08T01:29:50Z")
You’ve got to be kidding me. You really think it takes a specialist to know that randomly breaking into houses and carving people up like turkeys is a psychopathic thing to do? You’re being ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/156 "2010-07-08T01:40:09Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > While I am not one to usually defend the Mormon (LDS) religion, I think you mean “Thanks a majority of California voters”… True, but the LDS did give millions of dollars to the anti Prop8 propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/157 "2010-07-08T01:42:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You’ve got to be kidding me. You really think it takes a specialist to know that randomly breaking into houses and carving people up like turkeys is a psychopathic thing to do? You’re being ridiculous. No, it’s psycho_tic_ behavior. Psychopath is a specific diagnosis that is not synonymous with being psychotic; a psychopath is by definition psychotic but a psychotic is not by definition a psychopath. All dachshunds are dogs doesn’t mean that all dogs are dachshunds. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/158 "2010-07-08T01:46:16Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > True, but the LDS did give millions of dollars to the anti Prop8 propaganda. Which (IMHO) is an asshole move, but it is also consistant with their religious beliefs and if done properly, a perfectly legal thing to do… There are obviously many, many Californians who don’t want legalized gay marriage, and I know that there is not a huge number (it’s gotta be under 10% at the very most) of Mormons in California. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/159 "2010-07-08T01:47:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You’ve got to be kidding me. You really think it takes a specialist to know that randomly breaking into houses and carving people up like turkeys is a psychopathic thing to do? You’re being ridiculous. Hmmm. Let’s see. > [@Sampiro](#): > > No, it’s psycho_tic_ behavior. Psychopath is a specific diagnosis that is not synonymous with being psychotic; a psychopath is by definition psychotic but a psychotic is not by definition a psychopath. All dachshunds are dogs doesn’t mean that all dogs are dachshunds. Yup. Apparently it _does_ take a specialist to give a medical diagnosis. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824/160 "2010-07-08T01:52:04Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > No, it’s psycho_tic_ behavior. No, it’s only psychotic if the person is delusional and does not have an accurate perception of reality. None of the Manson killers were clinically psychotic, delusional or hallucinating. They were just psychopaths. Psychopaths are not mentally ill and are not psychotic. They just lack empathy and conscience. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-leslie-van-houten-manson-family-be-paroled/359824.md?page=9)