### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/1 "2008-09-22T14:56:24Z")
In Michigan the local cops have decided anyone not being able to show an ID when they demand it is an arrestable offense. Interfering in an investigation is the charge I’m told.
However due to the federal regulations getting a replacement ID can be difficult and costly. In addition to the $15 fee there’s the cost of gas, and multiple trips sense they always seem to reject something for the first few trips. Like their list of acceptable documents lists school records. It doesn’t mention GED transcripts don’t count. Most people’s local Secretary of State (the agency in Michigan that handles these things) was closed down to budget issues so this is costly in gas. One also has to procure a replacement Social security card. The card it’s self is free, but getting to a soc office is costly in gas for many Michigan people. This is assuming you have access to a car which many don’t reliably.
I kept a tally of replacement costs for getting a new ID last spring. In gas, fees ect. the costs where over a $100. My wallet was stolen, someone was doing god knows what with my good name, and thank god I didn’t have my bank card in it.
It was pretty distressing. Meanwhile times where tight
The debate I’m posing is: Should it be illegal to not have ID on you at all times?
My position is: fuck no! It essentially makes wallet theft a crime where the victim can be punished because they can’t present papers to The State, while the thief goes free. It’s hard enough to get ID with the rash of xenophobic idiots making Washington DC meddle in Michigan’s affairs.
If Michigan wants to demand ID at all times it should provide the means to get ID free of charge.
Keep in mind I’m talking regular ID, not driver’s licenses. I do agree for safety reasons it’s necessary to establish identity to see if someone shouldn’t be driving, but people walking or biking? People in the passenger seat? Fuck No.
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/2 "2008-09-22T15:03:24Z")
I walk my dogs in the woods every day. I have slid down hills and had to find my wallet in the bushes. I do not carry it when i walk now . When they say" Let me see your papers". I am vulnerable. But as a rule white suburbanites do not have much to fear.
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### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/3 "2008-09-22T15:04:07Z")
Only if you intentionally loose it and it hits someone.
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/4 "2008-09-22T15:05:51Z")
Looks unconstitutional to me but IANAL and have not seen the details of the law described in the OP. However there is this (bolding mine):
> [@](#):
>
> Petitioner Hiibel was arrested and convicted in a Nevada court for refusing to identify himself to a police officer during an investigative stop involving a reported assault. Nevada’s “stop and identify” statute requires a person detained by an officer under suspicious circumstances to identify himself. The state intermediate appellate court affirmed, rejecting Hiibel’s argument that the state law’s application to his case violated the Fourth and Fifth Amendments. The Nevada Supreme Court affirmed.
>
> Held: Petitioner’s conviction does not violate his Fourth Amendment rights or the Fifth Amendment’s prohibition on self-incrimination. Pp. 3—13.
>
> \
>
> …in Kolender v. Lawson, 461 U.S. 352, where it **invalidated on vagueness grounds California’s modified stop and identify statute that required a suspect to give an officer “credible and reliable ” identification** when asked to identify himself, id., at 360. This case begins where those cases left off. Here, the initial stop was based on reasonable suspicion, satisfying the Fourth Amendment requirements noted in Brown. Further, Hiibel has not alleged that the Nevada statute is unconstitutionally vague, as in Kolender. This statute is narrower and more precise. In contrast to the “credible and reliable” identification requirement in Kolender, **the Nevada Supreme Court has interpreted the instant statute to require only that a suspect disclose his name. It apparently does not require him to produce a driver’s license or any other document. If he chooses either to state his name or communicate it to the officer by other means, the statute is satisfied and no violation occurs. Pp. 3—6.**
>
> SOURCE: [HIIBEL v. SIXTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT OF
> NEVADA, HUMBOLDT COUNTY, et al.](http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZS.html)
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### Author:  [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/5 "2008-09-22T15:11:14Z")
No, but continually confusing “loose” with “lose” should be punishable with death by slow torture. That bullshit is really starting to get on my nerves.
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### Author:  [@ASAKMOTSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASAKMOTSD)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/6 "2008-09-22T15:16:24Z")
> [@gonzomax](#):
>
> I walk my dogs in the woods every day. I have slid down hills and had to find my wallet in the bushes. I do not carry it when i walk now . When they say" Let me see your papers". I am vulnerable. But as a rule white suburbanites do not have much to fear.
You never know in Rochester! The Rochester Police use 3-4 cars to pull over one speeding teenager. I would not be surprised if they strip searched you for walking your dog without identification.
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/7 "2008-09-22T15:48:40Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> In Michigan the local cops have decided anyone not being able to show an ID when they demand it is an arrestable offense. Interfering in an investigation is the charge I’m told.
It might be nice to see some actual statements from police, or lawmakers detailing what this means.
> [@](#):
>
> The debate I’m posing is: Should it be illegal to not have ID on you at all times?
Of course not.
However, if you do not have an ID, and wind up in a police investigation where they believe it is important to verify your identity, you can count on your day being ruined. In addition, if you have ID, and refuse to turn it over, forcing the police to find it themselves, you can also count on your day being ruined.
Just because something is legal doesn’t mean you get to do it entirely without consequence, it just places limits on what those consequences will be. As in, you can be detained and questioned, but you can’t be charged and incarcerated.
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### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/8 "2008-09-22T17:14:36Z")
Well the most recent example was last year. My friend and her boyfriend where in my car when I was pulled over a cracked tail light and I had just gotten back to Michigan so had an out of state plate. They took everyone’s ID, except her boyfriend who didn’t have any on him. They wanted to put him hand cuffs while they looked him up, and aid flat out they could arrest him for no ID when I protested. Luckily my friend found his soc card in her purse and that satiated the cops.
Not that I hope it matters but one of us wasn’t white looking, guess which one.
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### Author:  [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/9 "2008-09-22T17:43:17Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#):
>
> No, but continually confusing “loose” with “lose” should be punishable with death by slow torture. That bullshit is really starting to get on my nerves.
I agree. There’s a little memory trick I use so I don’t make that mistake:
“Lose” has one “o”.
“Loose” has two.
It takes a few days of repeating it nonstop to really get the hang of it, but once the pattern kind of reveals itself, it prevents one from looking silly.
Anyway, I’m with **Cheeseteak**. If you don’t have ID, they don’t necessarily have to arrest you, but they can ask you to come down to the station to get propery identified, and if you refuse to go, that might conceivably be an offense. I imagine that they have to have a good reason for asking for an ID, but I also imagine that said reason would be pretty easy to come gy for the police.
Alternately, if you’re pulled over (and are the actual driver) and can’t produce a driver’s license, you damn well better be expected to be arrested.
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### Author:  [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/10 "2008-09-22T17:43:43Z")
IANAL but we’ve had threads on this before, and the lawyers say all you have to do is identify yourself by telling them your name. You do not have to carry ID. Your friends should call the ACLU!!
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/11 "2008-09-22T17:57:10Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> They wanted to put him hand cuffs while they looked him up, and aid flat out they could arrest him for no ID when I protested. .
The police can pretty much say anything they want. [Prior thread on the topic.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=470121&highlight=police+lying) It’s entirely possible that they lied about being allowed to arrest him for interfering with an investigation, and lied about wanting to put him in handcuffs, because they wanted to pressure him into providing some type of ID. Lo and behold, it worked, he found a Soc Sec card that presumably matched the name he gave them.
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### Author:  [@bobthebuilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobthebuilder)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/12 "2008-09-22T18:13:06Z")
> [@ArizonaTeach](#):
>
> Anyway, I’m with **Cheeseteak**. If you don’t have ID, they don’t necessarily have to arrest you, but they can ask you to come down to the station to get propery identified, and if you refuse to go, that might conceivably be an offense. .
If this is the case, it should not be. I do not really think the government has any right to know who I am or to identify me unless I have done something wrong. If I never want to get an ID I should be free to do that. If I do not want to tell the police who I am and they have little to no reason to think I was doing anything wrong (aka I was riding but not driving in a car with a broken tail light) I should not have to show ID.
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### Author:  [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazle_Weatherfield)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/13 "2008-09-22T18:15:13Z")
> [@ArizonaTeach](#):
>
> I agree. There’s a little memory trick I use so I don’t make that mistake:
>
> “Lose” has one “o”.
> “Loose” has two.
>
> It takes a few days of repeating it nonstop to really get the hang of it, but once the pattern kind of reveals itself, it prevents one from looking silly.
>
> Anyway, I’m with **Cheeseteak**. If you don’t have ID, they don’t necessarily have to arrest you, but they can ask you to come down to the station to get propery identified, and if you refuse to go, that might conceivably be an offense. I imagine that they have to have a good reason for asking for an ID, but I also imagine that said reason would be pretty easy to come gy for the police.
>
> Alternately, if you’re pulled over (and are the actual driver) and can’t produce a driver’s license, you damn well better be expected to be arrested.
Wouldn’t you imagine that the error was just a typo and not confusion about the spelling?
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### Author:  [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/14 "2008-09-22T18:33:24Z")
> [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](#):
>
> Wouldn’t you imagine that the error was just a typo and not confusion about the spelling?
I’d like to think so, but I’m seeing this so much these days that it’s just driving me crazy. And I don’t recall that it used to be a problem. It seems that more and more people really don’t understand the difference, and they see this mistake on the Internet so often that they never learn the difference between “lose” and “loose”. Apparently ignorance is contagious.
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### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/15 "2008-09-22T18:46:17Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> The police can pretty much say anything they want. [Prior thread on the topic.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=470121&highlight=police+lying) It’s entirely possible that they lied about being allowed to arrest him for interfering with an investigation, and lied about wanting to put him in handcuffs, because they wanted to pressure him into providing some type of ID. Lo and behold, it worked, he found a Soc Sec card that presumably matched the name he gave them.
That was an enlightening thread.
I wonder had she not had a soc card for him how far would it have went?
**ArizonaTeach** I’ll restate for reasons of safety a driver needs to be identified to protect everyone on the road from people who shouldn’t drive. But currently I think society is safe from reckless unlicensed passengers for the most part, but like Demtri Martin says a drunk backseat driver can be dangerous if he’s persuasive.
“dude turn left”
“there’s nothing but trees to the left”
“_trust me_”
And the loose hyjack I think I came up with a memonic device to avoid that in the future. lose lost the extra o.
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### Author:  [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/16 "2008-09-22T18:47:23Z")
> [@bobthebuilder](#):
>
> If I do not want to tell the police who I am and they have little to no reason to think I was doing anything wrong (aka I was riding but not driving in a car with a broken tail light) I should not have to show ID.
Unfortunately, the Supreme Court disagrees with you. Check the cite that **Whack-a-Mole** provided.
Minor grammar note: you mean e.g., not a.k.a.
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### Author:  [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/17 "2008-09-22T21:52:02Z")
> [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](#):
>
> Wouldn’t you imagine that the error was just a typo and not confusion about the spelling?
Probably (but that’s why my “memory trick” was so…stupid.)
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### Author:  [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2008, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/18 "2008-09-23T10:05:31Z")
Why not keep a photocopy at home in a safe place of your driver’s license, SS card, and/or anything else you carry in your wallet that would be a pain to replace (except credit cards, of course). Then if your wallet is stolen, you can at least carry the photocopies while you are in the process of replacing them. If you have a passport (which I am told the majority of Americans now do), a color copy of the ID page is an excellent form of ID.
I can’t imagine that any cop would arrest someone for not having ID if they were carrying those photocopies, maintained a pleasant demeanor, and offered a credible explanation of how and when the original wallet contents had been stolen and what steps were in progress to replace the crucial items.
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### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2008, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/19 "2008-09-23T10:36:35Z")
I would like someone to link to the law in his/her state which requires a person to carry an ID. I know if you are driving a car, you must carry a driver’s license, but if I am riding in a car, or walking down the street, I would like to know what I would be charged with for failing to have identification.
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### Author:  [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-loosing-your-wallet-be-punishable-with-house-arrest/464682/20 "2008-09-23T17:24:49Z")
If the state demands to see our papers, can we all sing _La Marseillaise_ and wait for America to come to our aid?
Sailboat
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