# Should "Lord of the Flies" be read as a parody/satire of "Plato's Republic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 26, 2020, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379 "2020-07-26T06:20:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/2acd7d/32.png) [@Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octagon)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/1 "2020-07-26T06:20:08Z")
I have just reread Lord of the Flies after many years. I was wondering if it’s correect to read it as a satire of Plato’s Republic. I haven’t come across it linked with Plato’s Republic in that way online or anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/2 "2020-07-26T06:59:24Z")
Glad to make your acquaintance, Octagon. Frankly, I would prefer not to reread Lord of the Flies again at all. The first time was brutal enough. But Plato? Maybe. I will be lurking to read what others have to say though. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/3 "2020-07-26T08:10:27Z")
You can read it that way if you choose, but that wasn’t what Golding had in mind, as far as I know. It’s more mundane than that - an inversion of and response to a particular kind of Boy’s Own adventure novel. In this case, specifically, Ballantyne’s Robinsonade _A Coral Island_. And also based on Golding’s own experiences as a teacher at a boy’s school. ---
**Author:** ![Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/2acd7d/32.png) [@Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octagon)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/4 "2020-07-26T10:05:32Z")
Thanks Mr Dibble. For some reason I had never been fully satisfied with the novel being simply a satire of Ballantyne’s _A Coral Island_ . It just seemed too simplistic a view, and I guess was prepared to read more into it than was actually there. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/5 "2020-07-26T10:20:48Z")
Oh, no, I’m not saying it’s _just_ a parody of _ACI_. Golding clearly had deep messages about society and morality to convey. But I think primarily through the lens of having been a grammar school master, not a rumination on one of the Classics. I guess I’m trying to say it’s more a personal reflection for Golding. ---
**Author:** ![Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/2acd7d/32.png) [@Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octagon)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/6 "2020-07-26T10:40:28Z")
That clarifies things. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/7 "2020-07-26T12:34:25Z")
Welcome to the board, Octagon. The General Questions category is for questions which have a factual answer, which this one really doesn’t. But as it happens, we also have a category dedicated to the discussion of literature and other arts, Cafe Society. I’ll just move this over there for you. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/8 "2020-07-26T12:45:42Z")
If anything, it’s the opposite. Read through the lens of _the Republic_, _LotF_ would seem to support those ideas, not satirize them. Socrates (through Plato) would argue that the situation with the boys is what happens when a society forms without the influence of a Philosopher King. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/9 "2020-07-26T12:51:38Z")
Heck, it fits [almost perfectly.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_State) He’d say that the ‘Ship of State’ crashed, the navigator died, and there were none left but the quarreling sailors who, themselves, are incapable of forming a working city-state. ---
**Author:** ![Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/2acd7d/32.png) [@Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octagon)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/10 "2020-07-26T15:33:38Z")
Thanks Johnny Bravo. That makes a lot of sense. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/11 "2020-07-26T15:35:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Golding clearly had deep messages about society and morality to convey. But I think primarily through the lens of having been a grammar school master I read it quite a few years ago; but I remember thinking that assuming that the imagined behavior of a group of boys who’d been raised in that sort of school and culture could reasonably be expected to apply to humanity as a whole, or even to all children in that age group, was kind of absurd. It seemed to be taught in schools as if that extrapolation’s perfectly reasonable, though. Anybody know whether that’s been significantly challenged? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/12 "2020-07-26T15:42:22Z")
I’d say it was sorta challenged when [the exact situation in question](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months) occurred. Challenged and handily refuted. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/13 "2020-07-26T15:51:14Z")
Hah! And that was even also an all-male group from a boarding school from a similar culture. Thanks for the link! Article implies that didn’t get it challenged in the literary-criticism sense, however. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/14 "2020-07-26T16:29:57Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I read it quite a few years ago; but I remember thinking that assuming that the imagined behavior of a group of boys who’d been raised in that sort of school and culture could reasonably be expected to apply to humanity as a whole, or even to all children in that age group, was kind of absurd. > > It seemed to be taught in schools as if that extrapolation’s perfectly reasonable, though. Anybody know whether that’s been significantly challenged? Not everyone, not all the time, that’s not how cautionary tales work. I think there were two main points. The first is that this can happen even to well-brought-up British boys because there is a darkness in many people that civilizing influences or even rational self-interest can’t overcome. The second was a metaphor for world events, with individual children standing in for countries – the leaders, the bullies, the vulnerable little-uns who can’t stand alone, and so on. That’s tied in with the irony of the ending – the military ship has rescued the boys, but who’s going to rescue the military from their ultimate fate? As for that (poorly-written) story about the six boys, the comparison in circumstances is not very close. Six boys where were friends before they got marooned, vs. 50 or more boys of varying ages, many of whom didn’t know any of the others at the beginning of the story. The social forces would have been very different. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lord-of-the-flies-be-read-as-a-parody-satire-of-platos-republic/916379/15 "2020-07-26T17:14:33Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Article implies that didn’t get it challenged in the literary-criticism sense, however. Hence the “sorta”