# should LOTR:ROTK get any Oscars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 6, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080 "2004-01-06T21:00:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![sghoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@sghoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sghoul)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080/41 "2004-01-07T13:00:15Z")
The Griffen wrote: > [@](#): > > I think Kill Bill should get an Oscar. Possibly Best Picture, because it was very artistic. ROTK is up there with it though. I don’t get this. To me, artistic does not = “Spew as much blood in the air as possible and make a movie that plays exactly like old kung fu movies, but cost 10 times as much to make”. It was basically a live action Anime with fight scenes that were blaitantly fake. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080/42 "2004-01-07T13:03:48Z")
Miramax is now owned by Tme-Warner–but it was still independent when Pulp Fiction came out, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080/43 "2004-01-07T13:36:13Z")
No. [Link.](http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miramax) > [@](#): > > The company acquired a number of films which did extraordinarily well financially and the company was one of the leaders of the independent film revolution of the 1990s. In 1993 Miramax was purchased for $75 million by the Walt Disney Company. Disney still owns it. [Link.](http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/disney.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080/44 "2004-01-07T13:51:42Z")
Don’t forget Newline. There has to be an award for ‘Biggest Balls Betting the Entire Company’, right? ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080/45 "2004-01-07T16:19:48Z")
IMO the LOTR films deserve one Best Picture and Best Director Oscar. So even though I don’t think ROTK is the best film of the year I think it should get those Oscars. To nominate LOTR three times in a row for BP and have it lose three times would be too cruel. As for what will happen: I am pretty confident that it will receive the BP Oscar but not so sure Jackson will get Director. Let’s see. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080/46 "2004-01-07T20:37:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Governor Quinn \* > **Where’s Cervaise and lissener when you really need them?** Seattle got dumped on by the snow gods yesterday, so I wasn’t at work, and I did only a limited browse of the Dope from home. Nice to know I’m needed, though. 🙂 > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mullets \* > **I don’t recall many people here ever talking about indie films either.** I posted [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=211272) in September to champion _Lost in Translation_ and _American Splendor._ Lots of discussion there. Re the overall question, about the Oscars _ROTK_ deserves and/or will win: I think it’s the front-runner for Best Picture. While I agree with **Exapno Mapcase** and **Number Six** that there were better films this year, I find myself unable to be depressed that if they’re going to lose, they’re going to lose to Jackson’s trilogy. (And make no mistake, it will be a trilogy win, not an individual film win, for better or worse.) Mind you, I _will_ be depressed if the bloated _Cold Mountain_ pulls a _Beautiful Mind_ and sweeps as the “safe” choice, because it doesn’t deserve it. But I don’t think that’ll happen. As a self-contained film experience, I thought _Lost in Translation_ and _American Splendor_ were both superior to _Return of the King._ They topped the scales on emotional, intellectual, and artistic achievement, with fewer flaws than Jackson’s epic. There were also some other very good movies this year that might be competitive in the Oscar race, in an ideal world. I’m a fan of _Kill Bill_, for example, though I know it’s aimed at a limited audience. Also, the performances in _House of Sand and Fog_ are spectacular (though the direction is obviously by a first-timer, and I _hated_ James Horner’s musical score). _Finding Nemo_ was one of only two movies I saw twice in the cinema this year (the other was _American Splendor_). Ken Loach’s _Sweet Sixteen_ is the best movie of the year that won’t be nominated for squat. _Master and Commander_ and _Pirates of the Caribbean_ are as different as seafaring movies can be, but they’re both a lot better than they should have been for completely different reasons. Ditto for the _X-Men_ sequel, which surpasses the first film by a mile, and _School of Rock_, which was a lot more fun than I thought it would be. _Whale Rider_ was remarkably moving, especially so for hewing so close to predictable formula; it deserves at least a supporting performance nod for Cliff Curtis. And so on. There are a few I haven’t seen yet, like _Monster_, _The Company_, and _Girl with the Pearl Earring_, which I expect to be good. Of course, we had more of our fair share of crap, which drives down the average for the year and makes 2003, overall, a weaker year for film than I would have liked. _Dreamcatcher_, _League of Extraordinary Gentlemen_, _Underworld_, the _Tomb Raider_ sequel, the _Matrix_ sequels: they might as well have hired people to dump buckets of camel puke onto the audience. Big movies like _Cold Mountain_, _Last Samurai_, _Beyond Borders_, _Sylvia_, and _The Human Stain_ arrived with lots of award hype, and then didn’t measure up. _Wonderland_ was supposed to be the gritty indie of the year, and wasn’t. (That prize goes to the surprising _Thirteen._) _Intolerable Cruelty_ is fun, but still something of a disappointment given what we normally expect from the Coens. _Old School_ was supposed to be the funniest movie since _Animal House_, and wasn’t. _The Italian Job_ was just okay. _The Hulk_ is a strange hybrid of summer action fluff and serious art-house movie, and doesn’t really work. _Tears of the Sun_ appears to have started off with good intentions but goes completely off the rails. _The Hunted_ should have been awful; the fact that it was passably okay is a back-handed compliment. _A Mighty Wind_ was funny, but not funny enough. _Terminator 3_ sucked. _Timeline_ sucked. _Life of David Gale_ sucked like a black hole with a crack habit. But, for me, _Lost in Translation_ and _American Splendor_ make up for all of it. These are the kinds of movies for which I feel palpable gratitude, where I walk out of the cinema wanting to shake the hand of everyone involved and say “thank you.” In particular, I think about _American Splendor_ probably once a week since I saw it; the movie has changed the way I think about biographical films, and film in general. It’s a touchstone for me now. That being said, I think _Return of the King_ will win, and that’s okay with me. Peter Jackson’s achievement spills beyond the edges of the movie screen, and that’s what the award will reflect. He was handed the future of a movie studio, and he handed it back to them several times over. He was nobody before this; now he’s at the top of the heap. He managed to get a major studio to let him film an unfilmable book, and he and his co-writers miraculously put together an adaptation that’s much more faithful to the source than anybody but the blinkered purists could possibly have expected. He ran multiple shooting locations using state-of-the-art satellite and communications technology, directing scenes on two or three remote sets while simultaneously running the one at which he was physically present. He filmed three massively complex movies at the same time, picking up only a handful of inserts in the months and years following to fill in gaps that were missed the first time around. And he made epic fantasy, formerly a “ghetto” genre primarily designed to put marginally talented cheese-and-beef-cake performers in revealing leather outfits for the benefit of drooling teens and social misfits (it’s a straight line from _Deathstalker_ to _Kull the Conqueror_), a high-profile and very respectable public success, both critically and financially. In short: While the movie (and movies) Jackson made may be flawed on screen, the logistical and political achievement they represent is damn near unprecedented. And that’s why _Return of the King_ will win, and it’s why I won’t feel too bad _American Splendor_, a more deserving candidate if judged solely on the basis of the film itself, won’t win, let alone be nominated. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080/47 "2004-01-08T00:56:03Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by The Gaspode_ > Um, I don’t know where you find that 22 year time frame, but if you mean from SW to TPM, you’re leaving out Empire and Return. > However, GL wrote in between: Episodes for Young Indiana Jones, Captain Eo, The Indiana Jones trilogy, Radioland Murders. He didn’t direct a lot, but as a producer and with the clout and money to get his vision done, he’s done a lot: Body Heat, Labyrinth, Howard the Duck, Willow, Powaqqatsi, Tucker, The land before time and the titles mentioned above. On top of that, there is all the stuff for video games and like. I think most of what he’s done after Empire sucks, but he didn’t sit on his ass and collected royalties. Lucas didn’t write Empire or Jedi, or any of the Young Indiana Jones episodes. Look at his [IMDB entry:](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000184/) He gets credited for story and/or characters on them, but he didn’t personally write any (produced) screenplays between _Star Wars_ and _Phantom Menace_. This is not a small deal. I can come up with all sorts of neat characters and cool things for them to do. Translating that into a coherent and interesting screenplay is an entirely different story, and George has completely lost the ability to do this, and this has to be at least partly because he didn’t exercise it for more than two decades. He has been a prolific and succesful producer, so “sitting on his ass collecting royalties” was a little unfair. For all his shortcomings as a writer/director, one thing you can’t accuse Lucas of is being a poor businessman. Still, there’s a reason the Academy doesn’t give out statues for “Best Producer”: it’s not an artistic discipline. Lucas has spent the better part of his career giving money and ideas to other people so _they_ can make good movies, which is certainly laudable. Lucas _himself_, however, hasn’t made a good movie since Gerald Ford was president, and I think it took a remarkable amount of chutzpah for him to think he could just step right back into it after all that time and still make a movie that justifies the hype and expense of the Star Wars prequels. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080/48 "2004-01-08T02:16:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > **Still, there’s a reason the Academy doesn’t give out statues for “Best Producer”: it’s not an artistic discipline.** Yes they do. It’s called “Best Picture.” Sometimes it’s appropriate, and sometimes it isn’t, that the producer gets ultimate credit for the film. And suggesting that film production isn’t an art? Have you ever worked on a movie? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080/49 "2004-01-08T02:38:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cervaise \* > \*\*Yes they do. It’s called “Best Picture.” Sometimes it’s appropriate, and sometimes it isn’t, that the producer gets ultimate credit for the film. > > And suggesting that film production isn’t an art? Have you ever worked on a movie? \*\* Really? I thought the director usually accepted for Best Picture. I have trouble watching the Oscars without breaking stuff, though, so it’s not surprising I missed that. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080/50 "2004-01-08T04:20:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Really? I thought the director usually accepted for Best Picture. I have trouble watching the Oscars without breaking stuff, though, so it’s not surprising I missed that. \*\* An understandable mistake, since the most famous winners are often winners in both categories - Spielberg, Mel Gibson, Clint Eastwood. ---
**Author:** ![Alzarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@Alzarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alzarian)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080/51 "2004-01-08T06:45:16Z")
I havent seen the other two movies, (heresay I know), but I keep hearing that it just starts 2/3 of the way through the epic. Does this movie work as a stand-alone film? Is one required to have seen the first two to “get it”? If it doesn’t pass that test, it may be very hard to win the ultimate prize. On a trivial note, would this be only the second time a “Part III” would have been nominated in Oscar history? (The first time being with Godfather III). If it wins, it would surely be the first time a Part III wins the ultimate prize, and the third time a sequel would win, (Others are Godfather II & Silence of the Lambs). ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080/52 "2004-01-08T06:48:34Z")
If I were in charge, it would win: Best Picture Best Director Best Supporting Actor (Sean Astin) Best FX Best Score Best Song ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080/53 "2004-01-08T10:47:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alzarian \* > \*\*I havent seen the other two movies, (heresay I know), but I keep hearing that it just starts 2/3 of the way through the epic. Does this movie work as a stand-alone film? Is one required to have seen the first two to “get it”? If it doesn’t pass that test, it may be very hard to win the ultimate prize. > \*\* No, it doesn’t work as a stand-alone film. Yes, one is required to have seen the first two to get it. None of that matters. This series of movies is unlike anything that’s ever come before. No predictors based on past nominations/winners will be useful here. I think it **WILL** win Best Picture, because (besides the fact that it deserves to win) the win will honor all three. Whether that’s right or wrong is of no importance. It will happen. Peter Jackson will also win Best Director for the same reason. Here are some Lord of the Rings Oscar stats: **The Fellowship of the Ring** was nominated for 13 Academy Awards. It won 4. **The Two Towers** was nominated for 6 Academy Awards. It won 2. That doesn’t mean that **Return of the King** will be nominated and win even less. My opinion, which could well be just wishful thinking, is that ROTK will win many of the awards that FOTK and TTT lost. Here are the Oscars that were won: > [@](#): > > Best Effects, Visual Effects (Fellowship: WON) (Two Towers: WON) > > Best Cinematography (Fellowship: WON) > > Best Makeup (Fellowship: WON) > > Best Music, Original Score (Fellowship: WON) > > Best Achievement in Sound Editing (Two Towers: Won) Of those, the Visual Effects is a lock to be nominated and should be a lock to win. Cinematography and Score are possibles. Sound Editing is probable. Makeup is out, I believe, because that branch changed their rules to not allow movies filmed at the same time (or somesuch). Here are the other nominations: > [@](#): > > Best Picture (Fellowship: LOST) (Two Towers: LOST) > > Best Director (Fellowship: LOST) > > Best Art Direction-Set Decoration (Fellowship: LOST) (Two Towers: LOST) > > Best Sound (Fellowship: LOST) (Two Towers: LOST) > > Best Editing (Fellowship: LOST) (Two Towers: LOST) > > Best Costume Design (Fellowship: LOST) > > Best Music, Song (Fellowship: LOST) > > Best Writing, Screenplay Based on Material Previously Produced or Published (Fellowship: LOST) > > Nominated Oscar Best Actor in a Supporting Role (Fellowship: LOST) Picture and Director are nomination and win locks. The next 5 are nomination and win probables. Adapted Screenplay should be a lock but they probably won’t even be nominated again (freaking loud-mouthed purists). I think if the stats about what was LOST by both movies get out, people will want to reward ROTK for those things. Well, I would, but I’m not exactly unbiased. Supporting actor? It’s a possibility. I like all the actors, but I think only Sean Astin has a real chance at being nominated. Besides Samwise being a great role, Astin is Hollywood royalty. His mom and dad (Patty Duke and John Astin, in case someone didn’t know) are well-regarded and they have LOTS of contacts. Now that the whole arc is completed, and people can see how far Sam has come, I think a lot of Academy voters would gleefully check his name on their nomination boxes. That won’t ensure a win (just ask Kate Hudson) but it could make him one of the Five. So I guess my prediction is 13 nominations (I’m hoping for an Adapted Screenplay nom) and 9 wins (I’m counting out Screenplay, Supporting Actor, Cinematography and Score). My Nomination and Win predictions: Best Picture Best Director Best Effects, Visual Effects Best Achievement in Sound Editing Best Sound Best Art Direction-Set Decoration Best Editing Best Costume Design Best Music, Song (“Into The West”) Nominations, no wins: Best Actor in a Supporting Role (Sean Astin) Best Cinematography Best Music, Original Score Best Writing, Screenplay Based on Material Previously Produced or Published No nominations: Best Actor Best Actress Best Supporting Actress Best Makeup We shall see. Btw, I _have_ seen all the major contenders, with the exception of **Monster** (which I’ll see on Friday) but that movie will only be nominated for one award (Theron for Best Actress). It’s my opinion that ROTK has no serious competition for Best Picture. That’s not to say that there weren’t other excellent movies, some of which I might have liked even more or as much as ROTK, just that there’s nothing that screams out “WARNING! WARNING!THREAT!” to me. People are saying **Mystic River** is the biggest threat, and that may be, but it won’t stop the ROTK steamroller I hope I hope I hope and will be rewarded with a Sean Penn Best Actor win I hope I hope I hope. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-lotr-rotk-get-any-oscars/223080.md?page=2)