# Should male rape victims have to pay child support? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2008, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642 "2008-11-01T22:45:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/61 "2008-11-03T07:51:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And how was I doing that ? Again, how does driving him to his death - and it’s not like he has much reason to live- accomplish whatever you are trying to accomplish ? Unless your goal is to kill male rape victims. Someone paying child support doesn’t have much reason to live. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/62 "2008-11-03T10:01:17Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Someone paying child support doesn’t have much reason to live. Got it. You, of course overlook the little detail of the man being raped and forced to pay his rapist. Probably because you don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/63 "2008-11-03T21:10:30Z")
Consent is irrelevant. A child has a legal right to financial support from both parents unless they are adopted. The money is for the child, not for the mother. And if the woman raped the man she shouldn’t have custody, and the man should be allowed to put the child up for adoption. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/64 "2008-11-03T22:36:46Z")
If a rapist is in prison, how much can they contribute. Maybe we should let them have visitation, so the mother will have to face their rapist in prison once a week. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/65 "2008-11-03T22:44:14Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Consent is irrelevant. A child has a legal right to financial support from both parents unless they are adopted. The money is for the child, not for the mother. No, it’s not. It’s for the mother. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/66 "2008-11-03T22:55:33Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > I can’t vouch for it’s accuracy, but I read [this article](http://www.reason.com/news/show/29035.html) a few years ago. It gives several examples of men who were forced to pay child support who were not the father, and in fact had never even met the mother. > > The article describes cases where a mother applying for welfare was told she had to name a father. Once they have a “presumed” father they serve him with court papers. But very often that man isn’t served in person, they might leave the papers with someone else, or they might mail it to him. In any case, they don’t even know if the man received the papers. Then if the “father” doesn’t respond to the court in writing within 30 days, a default judgment is entered against him and wage garnishment starts or liens can be placed against him. Even if the “father” later proves that he never met the mother or DNA shows he can’t be the father, he’s SOL because he’s over the thirty day time limit. That law needs to be changed. Obviously there needs to be some proof of paternity before the state can force an unwilling man to pay child support. Innocent until proven guilty isn’t it? I even find it hard to believe any state could be that stupid and unjust to initiate such a policy in modern times. What those men need is a good combined class action law suit against the state to bring that practice to a halt. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/67 "2008-11-03T23:03:22Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Here is my biggest problem with the current child support system: > > They use the income shares model to determine how much a couple who was still together would spend on the child, due to some national figure, and then divide the responsibility. Let’s say that from the incomes, the court decides that the man owes $500/mo and the woman owes $1500/mo. She has a much better job than him. > > Now, we all know that it doesn’t take $2k/month to raise a child, but as a family court judge will tell you, this isn’t just to provide food and shelter. This is so the child will have a comparable life to what he would have with an intact family. > > Then find out two months from now that the kid lives in a pig sty and is fed the bare minimum food to keep child services at bay. You then demand to know where the woman’s $1500, let alone your $500 is going. > > The answer: it doesn’t matter. The man’s portion is demanded, with no oversight and no expectation that it will be used for the child. If he doesn’t pay, he is a “deadbeat Dad” and he goes to jail. The only remaining debtors prison in the free world. > > The woman can never pay her share and will never been held accountable.. I find this pretty unlikely but certainly not impossible. The law can’t guard against every possible scenario. There are laws in place to sue for neglect, for custody, or other options. If she’s using the money for drugs that’s one thing. If she decides to give it to her church that’s her choice. The Dad is still required to fulfill his obligation to the child even though he’d rather buy a boat or a ATV. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/68 "2008-11-04T07:20:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it’s not. It’s for the mother. Pragmatically speaking under certain systems, it might not be administrated properly. But we are arguing principles here (hence the “should” in the OP title). And in principle, the money is for the benefit of the kid. Otherwise it would be alimony, not child support. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/69 "2008-11-04T09:08:55Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Pragmatically speaking under certain systems, it might not be administrated properly. But we are arguing principles here (hence the “should” in the OP title). And in principle, the money is for the benefit of the kid. Otherwise it would be alimony, not child support. What it’s called is irrelevant as is it’s official purpose; what matters is what it is. And what it is, is for the mother, not the child; the child is just an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/70 "2008-11-04T10:27:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What it’s called is irrelevant as is it’s official purpose; what matters is what it is. And what it is, is for the mother, not the child; the child is just an excuse. I’m not sure how you can justify that position. There are no women receiving child support payments who are not raising children. And again I’ll reiterate a separation of two distinct issues: 1) whether ideologically, the children should be financially supported by their fathers regardless of the circumstances of their creation and 2) whether such a thing can pragmatically be legislated effectively. My arguments are only addressing the first issue. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/71 "2008-11-04T11:22:12Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I’m not sure how you can justify that position. There are no women receiving child support payments who are not raising children. But, as has been repeatedly said, the courts don’t care if a dime goes to the kid. > [@jackdavinci](#): > > And again I’ll reiterate a separation of two distinct issues: 1) whether ideologically, the children should be financially supported by their fathers regardless of the circumstances of their creation and 2) whether such a thing can pragmatically be legislated effectively. My arguments are only addressing the first issue. They aren’t separate. The real world trumps ideology. And since men who aren’t the father have been forced to pay, it’s not about forcing fathers to pay anyway. It’s simply designed to take money from men, and give it to women. It’s “woman support”, not child support. ---
**Author:** ![wolf11469](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf11469/32/12464_2.png) [@wolf11469](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf11469)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/72 "2008-11-04T12:54:35Z")
[quote=“jackdavinci, post:70, topic:470642”] There are no women receiving child support payments who are not raising children. QUOTE] A story from my home state. > **[Fox News - Breaking News Updates | Latest News Headlines | Photos & News...](https://www.foxnews.com/)** > > Breaking News, Latest News and Current News from FOXNews.com. Breaking news and video. Latest Current News: U.S., World, Entertainment, Health, Business, Technology, Politics, Sports. [http://hatemalepost.blogspot.com/2006/10/false-child-support-case-exposes.html](http://hatemalepost.blogspot.com/2006/10/false-child-support-case-exposes.html) ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/73 "2008-11-04T17:27:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They aren’t separate. The real world trumps ideology. And since men who aren’t the father have been forced to pay, it’s not about forcing fathers to pay anyway. It’s simply designed to take money from men, and give it to women. It’s “woman support”, not child support. This doesn’t follow. Some people in jail who are convicted of murder are not murderers. Therefore, murder laws aren’t designed to punish murderers, they are designed to put people in jail. The law is certainly designed with the intent of getting biological fathers to pay support. The fact that enforcement is causing some men who are not biological fathers to pay support means there is a problem with enforcement of this particular (California) law. It does not invalidate the notion of child support in general. That said, I do agree that it is ethically wrong to force male rape victims to pay to support the child. While the child does deserve to be taken care of, there are other possibilities. For example, a murderer deserves jail, but that doesn’t mean the murder victim’s estate should pay for it. The fact that something should be done is pretty universally shared, the question is when should a biological father pay. I’d say they should have a choice in the matter, and a rape victim has no choice at any point. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/74 "2008-11-04T21:53:46Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > ..If she decides to give it to her church that’s her choice. The Dad is still required to fulfill his obligation to the child .. Don’t you see the disconnect here? Dad gives his money “to the child” but the mother gives it “to the church”. Why isn’t there accountability to make sure the money indeed goes to the child? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/75 "2008-11-04T22:04:28Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#): > > This doesn’t follow. Some people in jail who are convicted of murder are not murderers. Therefore, murder laws aren’t designed to punish murderers, they are designed to put people in jail. Not the same thing. If, say, every time a black man is arrested under a law supposedly aimed against making murder convictions easier he gets convicted and imprisoned, but whites never are, would you saw that the purpose of the law is imprisoning murderers ? No, it’s about race. The courts don’t care if a man is actually the father; they don’t care if the money is spent on the child. They DO care that money gets taken from a man, and given to a woman. Therefore, it isn’t about the children, but about taking money from men and giving it to women. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/76 "2008-11-05T06:30:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The courts don’t care if a man is actually the father; they don’t care if the money is spent on the child. They DO care that money gets taken from a man, and given to a woman. Therefore, it isn’t about the children, but about taking money from men and giving it to women. That’s an extremely broad overgeneralization and even anthropomorphication of the courts. Cite? One or two example of travesties of justice do not go to the intention of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/77 "2008-11-05T06:41:42Z")
All rape victims, male or female, should pay child support, and this should replace the current system. There should be a database of registered rape victims, and as a group they should be forced to provide for every child of a single parent. It might not seem fair to make rape victims pay for children that aren’t even theirs, but the kids need to be supported, and the kids didn’t rape anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/78 "2008-11-05T07:08:20Z")
> [@Dan\_Norder](#): > > Now, I don’t feel like the statutory rape case cited above as a rape for this debate and others like it should count as rape, as consent was actually given, so there’s no real victim. If government wants to have laws making it a crime, that’s fine, but it’s not rape, regardless of what they call it. > > If a 19 year old female having sex with a 15 year old male is supposedly rape because the 15 year old couldn’t _legally_ give consent, that’d be the same as two 13 year olds having sex being mutual rape of each other. In a case like that, would the people complaining that this poor 15 year old had to pay for a child he fathered through consensual sex say that they 13 year old boy didn’t have to pay for the child he fathered? > > People just need to use some common sense. You do know that this happens, right? Two teens, both under the age of consent, have been caught in the act and then BOTH prosecuted for rape, despite the fact that both say the sex was consensual. [cite](http://www2.jsonline.com/news/metro/aug03/163688.asp) & [cite](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/11/us/11cnd-consent.html?hp) There was also a more recent case in California that was heavily publicized, but I was unable to find it. I think my google-fu needs sleep. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/79 "2008-11-05T08:05:14Z")
> [@Dan\_Norder](#): > > I just have to agree with other people who pointed this out, but that idea is both dead wrong and dangerously ignorant. Female rape victims sometimes have an orgasm and then feel guilty about the psychological conflict that causes. Rapes of males by males sometimes have the victim orgasming. A rape of a man by a woman under threat of violence could easily end with the man coming. > > Now, I don’t feel like the statutory rape case cited above as a rape for this debate and others like it should count as rape, as consent was actually given, so there’s no real victim. If government wants to have laws making it a crime, that’s fine, but it’s not rape, regardless of what they call it. > > If a 19 year old female having sex with a 15 year old male is supposedly rape because the 15 year old couldn’t _legally_ give consent, that’d be the same as two 13 year olds having sex being mutual rape of each other. In a case like that, would the people complaining that this poor 15 year old had to pay for a child he fathered through consensual sex say that they 13 year old boy didn’t have to pay for the child he fathered? > > People just need to use some common sense. Yeah, common sense. Such as the notion that we have laws about age of consent in order to shield juveniles from the consequences they are too immature to assume or even assess, which to me sounds like a perfect common-sense argument for saying that an under-age father should be off the hook for child support. You might further argue that circumstances alter cases and view a case in which the female is much older and supposedly wiser as different from one where they’re each as callow as the other, and I’d certainly support that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642/80 "2008-11-05T10:44:20Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > You do know that this happens, right? Two teens, both under the age of consent, have been caught in the act and then BOTH prosecuted for rape, despite the fact that both say the sex was consensual. [cite](http://www2.jsonline.com/news/metro/aug03/163688.asp) & [cite](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/11/us/11cnd-consent.html?hp) And from what I understand, the boys tend to get jail time and end up registered as a sex offender, and the girls get counseling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-male-rape-victims-have-to-pay-child-support/470642.md?page=5)