# Should merchants be made to stop adding fees to your purchase and instead roll all that into their prices? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 11, 2024, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421 "2024-05-11T18:44:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/21 "2024-05-12T12:03:22Z")
My gf flew Spirit Airlines taking her mom to Florida. She specifically chose Spirit because they fly out of Arnold Palmer Airport in Latrobe. She was amazed by how cheap the flight was. But, she observed, by the time you pay for your seats, baggage fees, etc, it costs almost as much as a real airline! ETA: Her flights were all on time, no delays. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/22 "2024-05-12T12:14:19Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > In other words “if we told customers what they have to pay before they sat down, they won’t come out to eat any more and I’ll have to fire people, and it’s all the fault of government regulation!” > > Imposing “significant menu price increases” sounds scary, but it’s a graphic design problem only. The cost of dining out, and the costs of running a restaurant, will not change at all. The problem I detect here is that restaurants will be scrambling to explain "ah yes, the price does look significantly higher than last month, but actually it’s exactly the same. We were just forced to get rid of the fee structure that was obscuring the real cost. No, the separate fee structure wasn’t any kind of regulatory requirement, it was just a thing we did for, like, your convenience and stuff. Of course they’re threatening to fire staff over it. Some places will lose business if their slimy pricing behaviors are exposed. Some of those owners would rather fire staff to avoid revealing what they’ve been doing. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/23 "2024-05-12T13:14:03Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > And if State B doesn’t have a sales tax, I don’t pay anything ( this is how [Leona Helmsley](https://www.nytimes.com/1986/11/06/nyregion/leona-helmsley-is-said-to-evade-sales-taxes.html) famously avoided sales tax.) Not exactly. Per the linked article, the president and controller of the jewelry store were charged with operating a scheme by which customers with out-of-state addresses could have their purchases recorded as being mailed to them, thus avoiding New York City and State taxes. The buyers would simply walk out of the store with their items, and an empty box would be sent to the out-of-state address. Not only was this illegal as far as New York is concerned (because the item in question was actually being sold and used in New York), but in Helmsley’s case her out-of-state address was in Connecticut, which not only has sales tax itself but also charges a “use tax” at the same rate for items purchased in other states but brought into and used in Connecticut. So it was an illegal tax-avoidance scheme either way. The jewelry firm’s principals later pled guilty and the store was [fined $5 million](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/national/1987/01/09/jeweler-fined-5-million/6ab947a4-fa88-478e-9db0-dd8bfba9f628/), which was (at the time), the largest fine imposed in a criminal sales-tax evasion case in New York history. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/24 "2024-05-12T13:20:46Z")
It was absolutely illegal , but the only reason it worked even temporarily was because the store wasn’t required to collect the NYS sales tax if the merchant had actually shipped the merchandise to Connecticut. If the store had been required to collect the NYS tax no matter where the jewelry was delivered, shipping empty boxes wouldn’t have made a difference . And there’s really no way to include tax in the price unless you are going to charge that price even in situations where people are exempt from tax - like if the purchase is shipped to Delaware. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/25 "2024-05-12T13:31:10Z")
I see no great difficulty about requiring the advertised price to be inclusive of sales tax. Those buying in circumstances in which they are not subject to sales tax can then be offered a discount. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/26 "2024-05-12T13:36:39Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > It was absolutely illegal , but the only reason it worked even temporarily was because the store wasn’t required to collect the NYS sales tax if the merchant had actually shipped the merchandise to Connecticut. If the store had been required to collect the NYS tax no matter where the jewelry was delivered, shipping empty boxes wouldn’t have made a difference . > > And there’s really no way to include tax in the price unless you are going to charge that price even in situations where people are exempt from tax. I totally agree. If the store had been shipping the actual merchandise to Connecticut, they would have been off the hook. However, Helmsley would have still been illegally avoiding the Connecticut “use tax” for out-of-state purchases. > [@doreen](#): > > And if State B doesn’t have a sales tax, I don’t pay anything ( this is how [Leona Helmsley](https://www.nytimes.com/1986/11/06/nyregion/leona-helmsley-is-said-to-evade-sales-taxes.html) famously avoided sales tax.) This is the part I was taking a slight exception to—because Connecticut _does_ have a sales tax, and a “use tax” for out-of-state purchases. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/27 "2024-05-12T13:41:50Z")
I guess I could have been clearer- since we are talking about inclusive pricing, I was only referring to paying tax collected by the seller at the point of purchase by “don’t pay anything” ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/28 "2024-05-12T13:48:44Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I guess I could have been clearer- since we are talking about inclusive pricing, I was only referring to paying tax collected by the seller at the point of purchase. - Inclusive pricing would only involve the seller and fees they might charge, sales tax goes to the government. The buyer should expect that sales tax might be charged. Also, the amount of sales tax isn’t at the whim of the seller. ---
**Author:** ![Pitchmeister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pitchmeister/32/3459_2.png) [@Pitchmeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pitchmeister)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/29 "2024-05-12T13:53:46Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > I’m pretty sure in every country and currency 10 isn’t enough for 7.99+2.25. Except maybe in a country with hexadecimal currency? ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/30 "2024-05-12T14:05:41Z")
> [@Pitchmeister](#): > > Except maybe in a country with hexadecimal currency? Fair point. “Honey, bananas are on sale for A0 a kilo!” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/31 "2024-05-12T14:08:13Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > “Honey, bananas are on sale for A0 a kilo!” Kilos aren’t cursed enough for a place that uses hexadecimal currency. Their unit of measure for weight should be equally counterintuitive and awkward - something like pounds. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/32 "2024-05-12T14:17:48Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Their unit of measure for weight should be equally counterintuitive and awkward - something like pounds. Actually pounds are fine for weight! Not so great for mass, though. That’s the real pickle. For those you have to use slugs, which nobody is familiar with—or the pound-mass, which is a truly bastardized unit. —former physics teacher ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/33 "2024-05-12T14:19:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > > > “Honey, bananas are on sale for A0 a kilo!” > > Kilos aren’t cursed enough for a place that uses hexadecimal currency. Their unit of measure for weight should be equally counterintuitive and awkward - **something like pounds**. - What’s so awkward about pounds? It was easy to figure out I weigh 160,320 farthings. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/34 "2024-05-12T14:38:24Z")
I’m in favor of an inclusive price law. It will increase economic efficiency for everyone once we get used to it. I can think of three problems. One is chain stores, such as supermarkets, that have a weekly discount brochure distributed near a border separating areas with different sales taxes. I favor an exception where the brochure can include a note saying sales tax not included. But on internet sites where you can enter your location, and in the stores, everything should have to be labeled inclusively. Another is shipping on web sites. I guess I would allow that to remain an exception. The third problem is the cash discount some businesses offer. I favor a cashless society on grounds that lightweight anonymous money is an enormous root cause of crime and [messes up the economy in more subtle ways](https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691172132/the-curse-of-cash). So cash discounts (or credit card surcharges, those being exactly the same thing) should be illegal. If VISA has a monopoly that is keeping credit card processing fees high, break it up, but disallow incentivizing cash. P.S. In theory, I might allow coin payment discounts, but hardly any businesses will offer it. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/35 "2024-05-12T15:00:36Z")
For restaurants, you don’t tip on fees, right? But now if the fees are rolled into the price of the meal, you will be tipping on that, meaning you’ll actually be tipping more. So I’d imagine anyone who makes tips would love this regulation. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/36 "2024-05-12T15:08:52Z")
Tipping discussion should go here in new topic: [US Tipping, whole bill, or bill minus taxes and fees. Also liquor & beer?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-tipping-whole-bill-or-bill-minus-taxes-and-fees-also-liquor-beer/1001446) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/37 "2024-05-12T15:16:29Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Inclusive pricing would only involve the seller and fees they might charge, sales tax goes to the government. The buyer should expect that sales tax might be charged. > Also, the amount of sales tax isn’t at the whim of the seller. In theory, maybe, but in practice, it’s not as if buyers pay twice, once for the price and once for the tax. The seller takes all of the money, puts it in their bank account, and on some later date it writes a check to the government equal to the sales tax paid. Look at it this way - if the seller “forgets” to pay your sales tax to the government, _they_ get in trouble, not you. For all effects and purposes, sales tax is just another expense sellers have to bear, like salaries and rent. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/38 "2024-05-12T15:55:06Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > The problem I detect here is that restaurants will be scrambling to explain "ah yes, the price does look significantly higher than last month, but actually it’s exactly the same. We were just forced to get rid of the fee structure that was obscuring the real cost. No, the separate fee structure wasn’t any kind of regulatory requirement, it was just a thing we did for, like, your convenience and stuff. > > Of course they’re threatening to fire staff over it. Some places will lose business if their slimy pricing behaviors are exposed. Some of those owners would rather fire staff to avoid revealing what they’ve been doing. Yes. The thing that gets my hackles up about the person quoted in the article (and to be honest many business owners) is that they made the choice to be deceitful/sneaky in the first place. Then, getting called out on it and being told to stop, they frame it as “look at how government regulation is going to harm our employees and our own bottom line.” If a restauranteur is truly using a strategy to get people through the door where they are advertising a low price of $10 for a meal and then charging $12 (made up numbers) plus tax and tip, the gall and/or self-delusion it takes to cry “woe is me” when the government says “you can’t say you’re charging $10 if you’re actually charging $12” is unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/39 "2024-05-12T16:59:05Z")
Try to avoid Sales Tax detailed discussions in this thread. It will tend to hijack it. 10 posts were merged into an existing topic: [US Tipping, whole bill, or bill minus taxes and fees. Also liquor & beer? {POLLS ADDED}](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-tipping-whole-bill-or-bill-minus-taxes-and-fees-also-liquor-beer-polls-added/1001446/17) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/40 "2024-05-12T17:17:13Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I wish they would do that with cell phone rates too. My cell phone company advertises $25 a month, but by the time taxes and fees are added it’s $36. There is one that advertises $25 with fees included (not sure about taxes) and I’ve been thinking about switching. I’m cheap that way. But aren’t customers demanding cheap rates responsible for bad service and price gouging? I see to recall you making that case re lack of airline seat room. 😜 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421.md?page=3)