# Should merchants be made to stop adding fees to your purchase and instead roll all that into their prices? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 11, 2024, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421 "2024-05-11T18:44:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/41 "2024-05-12T21:09:38Z")
That’s really not a good summary of what I said, but I don’t have the energy to help you figure it out\*. In any case, if I can find cheaper rates for equal or better service, I would be a fool to ignore it. My beef is less with the rates than with hiding part of the rates as fees. Which is what this thread is about. \*And is it good form to follow people around because they disagreed with you in another thread? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/42 "2024-05-12T23:16:28Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Further IMO taxes, if any, should NOT be rolled into the displayed prices. It’s better to display both pre- and post-tax prices, but if there’s only room for one price, make it pre-tax. Yes, even for highly taxed situations like hotels and rental cars. Gas stations have managed to do this for years with no problems. While the tax is the same everywhere, so it is less of an issue, it is nice to know what you are paying with one glance. Given that the gas stations near me have cash price, credit price, carwash price and premium gas price on their signs, I don’t think it would be practical to add a whole slew of non-tax prices. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > The rest of Spirit’s _a la carte_ services, such as carry-on bag, checked bag, food, drink, etc, etc, are individually defensible because not everyone needs everything and some people need zero of those things. The consumer challenge comes in when the conventional old-fashioned airline model was “all inclusive”: you could bring a silly amount of both checked and carry-on luggage, and be fed & liquored up, all for one price. In restaurant terms, that’s like somebody who grew up eating only at all you can eat buffets then as an adult being introduced to conventional restaurants with menus containing both pure _a la carte_ items and combo meals such as salad, meat, veggie, and starch. The issue is not with their right to impose whatever fees they want. The issue is them not disclosing these fees until someone has gone through five screens and invested significant mental energy in choosing flights and times. This makes it much less likely to back out and find something else. Especially when prices change by the minute. The point is to easily allow comparisons of costs, before investing time in each potential airline. This is exactly why I mostly fly Southwest. I pay extra for early boarding if I wish, but besides that, no bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/43 "2024-05-12T23:55:13Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The issue is not with their right to impose whatever fees they want. The issue is them not disclosing these fees until someone has gone through five screens and invested significant mental energy in choosing flights and times. This makes it much less likely to back out and find something else. Especially when prices change by the minute. Pretty much this. You are lured in by a low advertised price then, when you get way into the process of booking the ticket (typing your name in and credit card and whatnot) they then start in with the fees and all of a sudden your cheap ticket is not cheap any more. Maybe many fees can be avoided picking a seat really cannot (some suggested it can and then you are assigned a seat for free but if that is possible they certainly did not make it obvious). And while some people may not have luggage most will so that is darn close to a mandatory fee. Maybe in the case of Spirit Airlines and those like them they should have to advertise the average price of a ticket. Add up what every passenger pays for a ticket on a given route and then find the average of them and advertise that (with a note that the price may vary). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/44 "2024-05-13T00:02:56Z")
Yeah, a la carte pricing might be a bit surprising if you’re not expecting it, but it’s not inherently dishonest: If they advertise that you can get a flight for $73, and there’s a (bare-bones, no luggage, no snack) flight that you can actually get for $73, then they’re being truthful. The problem comes when there are absolutely unavoidable fees, where you might have a choice of a variety of options but even the cheapest option available is still more than the price they advertised. ---
**Author:** ![fedman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/45 "2024-05-13T00:23:30Z")
> [@Jegpeg](#): > > There was rumours they would charge for use of the toilet but this hasn’t happened yet. I thought Ryanair tried doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/46 "2024-05-13T01:26:42Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Restaurant owners like Laurie Thomas, who heads the Golden Gate Restaurant Association, say the changes will bring higher prices and sticker shock, which could then raise a psychological hurdle in customers’ dining habits. That, in turn, will hurt restaurants and their workers, she warns. > > > > “If it’s in the core price of the menu, there will be a pullback” in patrons’ spending, she told NPR shortly before the attorney general released the guidelines. "There are some people, I think, that are hoping that the restaurants will just absorb that cost, because we’ve seen people say, ‘Oh, it’s too expensive with the service charge.’ " > > > > Under the new guidelines, Thomas’ organization said in an email to NPR, restaurants will be forced to impose “significant menu price increases.” And if customers eat out less, it warns, "Not only will restaurants struggle, but workers will lose hours and jobs > > In other words “if we told customers what they have to pay before they sat down, they won’t come out to eat any more and I’ll have to fire people, and it’s all the fault of government regulation!” > > Imposing “significant menu price increases” sounds scary, but it’s a graphic design problem only. The cost of dining out, and the costs of running a restaurant, will not change at all. Oh boo-freakin-hoo! I already need to add 25% to the menu price (tax & tip) which I can do easily enough in my head. but if we go out I want to spend (picking a somewhat arbitrary number) \< $100. Looking at the price of entrees that means we may also order either one or two appetizers &/or dessert. If I knew there was going to be extra fees I would have ordered one app & entrees but told the her individual apps was over our budget for the night. My SO has no problem with me stating that our budget is $xx & then sticking to it, even if that means only one app for us to share or even no apps (we don’t get dessert all that often anyway) We went out to eat at one place that had QR codes so I had to use my phone to see what they had to order (& a lot of restaurants don’t know how to setup their menu correctly; I shouldn’t need to scroll left to right to read a description of an item, like this place did) They had sections that you’d click on to expand. I didn’t want soup so I never expanded to see what the options were. When we got the bill there was some fee on it. I called BS on that, they said it was on the bottom of the menu; ummm I’m supposed to keep scrolling after I’ve decided on what I want to eat??? He could have taken it back for adjustment but we had a train to catch & we had already waited 10 mins to get the first bill. I told him I was paying the base bill, tax & tip of x% & it was up to him to deal with his manager as to whether that fee would come off & go towards his tip or go to management. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/47 "2024-05-13T03:17:29Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I’d like to see this in place for every industry. Not just industry! The Minnesota Legislature is considering a bill to require such ‘nuisance fees’ to be included in the advertised list price. I asked my legislator recently (who’s an author of the bill) if the bill also applied to government entities. Pointed out that recently renewing my auto license included paying a ‘convenience fee’ for not doing it in person at the DMV office, a ‘technology fee’ for doing it online, and a ‘shipping fee’ for mailing me the tabs. She seemed surprised, said that she wasn’t sure if the language of the bill would apply to government bodies – said it was complaints about businesses bait & switch pricing that had inspired the bill. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/48 "2024-05-13T04:14:23Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > I asked my legislator recently (who’s an author of the bill) if the bill also applied to government entities. I ran into this in Chicago recently. Although, I think technically this is a private company thing and not the government since the city government sold this to a private entity (one of the worst deals in the history of ever…Chicago got royally screwed). I was parking my car and used the app to pay for parking. Not only was I charged a fee to park but also a convenience fee. For what? There is absolutely no reason for that added fee. It not even a transaction charge since you need to put money into an account that gets paid down over time as you park. So, they are earning interest on my money and charging me a fee to take my money. Fuckers. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/49 "2024-05-13T10:49:14Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Pointed out that recently renewing my auto license included paying a ‘convenience fee’ for not doing it in person at the DMV office Is that actually a “convenience fee” for not renewing in person or is it a fee for using a credit/debit card ? It’s not uncommon for me to see a government agency that charges a fee for me to use a credit/debit card (in-person or not) but no fee to pay online with an “electronic check” . ---
**Author:** ![f.coli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eada6e/32.png) [@f.coli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/f.coli)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/50 "2024-05-13T12:07:23Z")
Thenardier the innkeeper in Les Miserables described add on fees pretty well: Charge 'em for the lice, extra for the mice Two percent for looking in the mirror twice (Hand it over!) Here a little slice, there a little cut Three percent for sleeping with the window shut When it comes to fixing prices There are a lot of tricks I knows How it all increases, all them bits and pieces Jesus! It’s amazing how it grows! ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/51 "2024-05-13T12:10:47Z")
While I do not like the added on fees, I like even less the idea of laws/rules/regulations being piled on. Let consumers choose where to spend their money. Educate consumers. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/52 "2024-05-13T12:52:59Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Let consumers choose where to spend their money. Educate consumers. No matter how much you educate us, consumers are never going to be as savvy as the people ripping them off. They do it for a living - we don’t. That’s why regulations are necessary. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/53 "2024-05-13T13:00:01Z")
This does not work out well and doesn’t even increase competition. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/54 "2024-05-13T14:11:39Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I like even less the idea of laws/rules/regulations being piled on. Let consumers choose Sometimes laws and regulations are helpful in situations where it would be to everyone’s advantage to follow the same rules, but it would put some at a disadvantage if they played by those rules while others did not. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/55 "2024-05-13T14:20:22Z")
Yep - that’s exactly the issue with a lot of these mandatory, non-inclusive fees. If a hotel charges $100 a night but adds a $15/night “resort fee” later in the process . it looks less expensive than one that charges $110 a night with no resort fee. Which is how you end up with an industry where no one ever pays the advertised price. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/56 "2024-05-13T19:46:19Z")
Plot twist (I guess I should not be surprised): - [Major airlines sue Biden administration over fee disclosure rule](https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/major-airlines-sue-biden-administration-over-fee-disclosure-rule-2024-05-13/) > Major U.S. airlines are suing the U.S. Transportation Department over a new rule requiring upfront disclosure of airline fees, the latest clash between air carriers and the Biden administration. > > \< snip \> > > The USDOT issued final rules last month requiring airlines and ticket agents to disclose service fees alongside the airfare, saying it would help consumers avoid unneeded or unexpected fees. > > The airline group said in a statement on Monday the department’s rule would confuse consumers and that its “attempt to regulate private business operations in a thriving marketplace is beyond its authority.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/57 "2024-05-14T01:01:19Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > While I do not like the added on fees, I like even less the idea of laws/rules/regulations being piled on. Let consumers choose where to spend their money. Educate consumers. The regulation here is literally to educate customers. Customers can’t choose unless they can actually see the whole price. The regulation is to require businesses to show the whole price. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/58 "2024-05-14T01:07:18Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I can think of three problems. > > One is chain stores, such as supermarkets, that have a weekly discount brochure distributed near a border separating areas with different sales taxes. I favor an exception where the brochure can include a note saying sales tax not included. But on internet sites where you can enter your location, and in the stores, everything should have to be labeled inclusively. These prices would not be inclusive of sales tax so that wouldn’t be a problem. It’s only inclusive of actually price of item + any fees (not taxes) the establishment might charge. > _Currently:_ > > Krusty Burger-----------------------$10 > Krusty Koke-------------------------$5 > > Fun surcharge----------------------$5 > Owner retirement surcharge----$5 > Service fee--------------------------$5 > > **SUBTOTAL-------------------------$30** > > 10% SALES TAX------------------$3 > > TOTAL-------------------------------$33 > _After law change:_ > > Krusty Burger-----------------------$17.50 > Krusty Koke-------------------------$12.50 > > **SUBTOTAL-------------------------$30** > > 10% SALES TAX------------------$3 > > TOTAL-------------------------------$33 The new prices of the burger and coke in my example were just made up–the business owner can change their pricing however they want. But they have to make all the costs be part of the item price. No more added mystery fees and surcharges. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/59 "2024-05-14T01:27:46Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > These prices would not be inclusive of sales tax so that wouldn’t be a problem. It’s only inclusive of actually price of item + any fees (not taxes) the establishment might charge. Putting aside sales taxes, which have another thread, there are often separate hotel taxes, and fees related to air travel, and cell phone use, that may or may not be described as a tax. There is some value to your proposal, but I think most of the benefit is lost if there isn’t a simple final price. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421/60 "2024-05-14T11:21:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Customers can’t choose unless they can actually see the whole price. The regulation is to require businesses to show the whole price. If I see the place tacks on surcharges, I don’t go back. Or I do, if the place is really all that good. I just don’t think it’s necessary to pile on rules/regulations/laws. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-merchants-be-made-to-stop-adding-fees-to-your-purchase-and-instead-roll-all-that-into-their-prices/1001421.md?page=4)