# Should Michael Sam be selected regardless of his playing ability? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-michael-sam-be-selected-regardless-of-his-playing-ability/688076 "2014-05-09T18:48:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-michael-sam-be-selected-regardless-of-his-playing-ability/688076/41 "2014-05-14T21:22:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Who cares what they think, though? Oh I don’t. I just find it insane that there are people that believe such bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-michael-sam-be-selected-regardless-of-his-playing-ability/688076/42 "2014-05-14T21:37:23Z")
Regardless of playing ability? No. Would it have been a black eye for the NFL if he hadn’t been drafted at all? Yeah, there would have been a week’s worth of stories about the league and gays and such, including some ‘locker room environment’ stories that would bash them a bit. And I have no doubt - though no special information - that both Sam’s combine performance and his being put made him slip some spots. But the fact is that both he and the NFL got through it and an openly gay man got drafted by an NFL team. It’s a PR win for the Rams, for the NFL and one more step toward gay acceptance. I don’t think any of those are bad things. Now he’ll get his shot and if he doesn’t make it, the Rams need to make clear that he was treated like everyone else. If he does make it he’ll be a curiousity for a while but eventually just accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-michael-sam-be-selected-regardless-of-his-playing-ability/688076/43 "2014-05-15T01:38:36Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > According to [one writer](http://onenewsnow.com/perspectives/bryan-fischer/2014/05/12/the-nfls-inexcusable-lack-of-compassion-for-michael-sam), the NFL should be ashamed of themselves for not caring about Sam, because as a young, black, gay man he’s clearly going to get HIV and die. If they cared they’d have him go to ‘reparative therapy’ and turn straight! Not only that – with enough prayer, he can become an ex-negro, too. See [here.](http://www.landoverbaptist.org/exnegro/ex-NegroAdFINAL.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-michael-sam-be-selected-regardless-of-his-playing-ability/688076/44 "2014-05-15T17:04:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Except when Missouri played in the SEC, he was co-Defensive Player of the Year, so there’s that. I think you’ve missed my point. Missouri didn’t magically change when they went to the SEC from the Big 12. It’s not that they didn’t play defense 3 years ago and all of a sudden start playing defense the past two years. They, along with Texas A&M, are generally playing the same style they were playing before. A&M, if anything, is playing more of a Big 12 style of offense in the SEC than when they were in the Big 12. The comment was in response to Really Not All That Bright’s suggestion that an SEC DPOY should be a top ten pick, but that a Big 12 DPOY is unsurprising to be undrafted since they don’t play defense. That argument (or really joke) seems to fall flat on its face when this guy was a Big 12 defender that is recognized as the best defender in the SEC. It’s not at all a comment on Michael Sam, it’s a comment on the ridiculous SEC love. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-michael-sam-be-selected-regardless-of-his-playing-ability/688076/45 "2014-05-15T17:39:50Z")
It’s not SEC love. It’s merely an observation that the SEC DPOTY tends to be a more reliable predictor of success than other college awards. You could refute it by listing the last 10 or so Big 12 DPOTYs if they were successful at the next level. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-michael-sam-be-selected-regardless-of-his-playing-ability/688076/46 "2014-05-15T19:43:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not SEC love. It’s merely an observation that the SEC DPOTY tends to be a more reliable predictor of success than other college awards. You could refute it by listing the last 10 or so Big 12 DPOTYs if they were successful at the next level. I’ve got to be honest; I thought your first comment was a joke. That you now appear to be serious is kind of shocking. How did you show that being SEC DPOY is a reliable predictor of success at the next level? I’m pretty sure all you did was show that they generally are drafted high, not that they have great NFL success. Additionally, I don’t see how me showing that Big 12 DPOY having success in the NFL proves that Big 12 teams play defense. Especially when I think the real issue between the leagues is the style of offenses, not that they don’t play defense. Nobody accuses Alabama of not playing defense, but they just got lit up by Oklahoma for 45 points. However, notable Big 12 DPOYs that are successful in the NFL have been guys like Ndamukong Suh, Brian Orakpo, Derrick Johnson, and Casey Hampton. I don’t see how that proves anything, but there you go. Further to my point about the style of offenses in the leagues being different, the two Big 12 teams that joined have immediately been higher scoring teams. Texas A&M has led the SEC in scoring these past two years and Missouri was the highest scoring team in the SEC East this past year. I think what you really had in the SEC was that the top programs (recently that being Alabama and LSU) have been running ball control, eat up the clock type of offenses. Now that spread style hurry up offenses are moving to the SEC (like they earlier did in the Pac 12 and Big 12) with teams like Auburn, A&M, and Missouri, I think you will see more high scoring games in the league. Quicker tempo and more passing leads to more quick scoring. Guys like Will Muschamp and Gene Chizik didn’t briefly forget how to coach defense when they moved to the Big 12 from the SEC and then remember it when they moved back to the SEC, they just had to coach against quick tempo passing teams. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-michael-sam-be-selected-regardless-of-his-playing-ability/688076/47 "2014-05-15T20:44:00Z")
Deleted for un-Great-Debate-like content. Forgot where I was, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-michael-sam-be-selected-regardless-of-his-playing-ability/688076/48 "2014-05-19T14:39:19Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > Oh I don’t. I just find it insane that there are people that believe such bullshit. To me the fact that it was on ESPN makes me believe it may have in fact been staged. Almost everything on ESPN is carefully arranged for what ESPN believes is maximum entertainment value, I’d actually be surprised if they hadn’t scripted it to some degree. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-michael-sam-be-selected-regardless-of-his-playing-ability/688076/49 "2014-05-19T14:59:39Z")
I am _not_ an SEC homer. My team plays in the AAC. I’m as sick of SEC arse-kissing as I am of NFC East talk in the NFL. > [@LonghornDave](#): > > How did you show that being SEC DPOY is a reliable predictor of success at the next level? I’m pretty sure all you did was show that they generally are drafted high, not that they have great NFL success. Sorry, I got this confused with the other Sam thread, where I discussed how the last 10 SEC DPOTYs turned out: > [@Top college football prospect \[Michael Sam\] comes out](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-college-football-prospect-michael-sam-comes-out/680939/247): > > Pollack was an instant star for the Bengals, then broke his neck at the beginning of his second year and was forced to retire. If he was still in the league he’d probably be a perennial Pro Bowler. > > Ryans was defensive Rookie of the Year and made a couple of Pro Bowls, but has had injury concerns. > > Willis was the best MLB in the league more or less from the moment he was drafted and is an automatic Pro Bowler every year. > > Dorsey never quite lived up to the draft hype (he didn’t fit well into the Chiefs’ scheme) but has been a solid pro and started most of last season for the 49ers. > > Berry is one of the league’s best cover safeties and is the backbone of the Chiefs’ defense. He made the Pro Bowl each of the last three seasons. > > McClain was a bust for the Raiders and retired at the age of 23. > > Peterson was an instant star and is the best player on the Cardinals’ defense. > > Claiborne has been an up and down performer for the Cowboys and was benched last year (though he was playing with an injury.) > > Jones was a spot starter for Pittsburgh as a rookie. Their scheme requires a lot from linebackers so we probably won’t know if he’s any good for a couple of years. > > The upshot is that drafting the SEC player of the year is generally a good idea. Compare the players above to, say, [the last 20 Heisman winners](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Heisman_Trophy_winners). Cam Newton and RGIII are the only ones since 1996 to become stars in the NFL (unless you include Reggie Bush and Tim Tebow, who are “stars” because of their collegiate and off-field fame.) [QUOTE=Still me] I just looked up [Chad] Lavalais. He’s the only other player on that list [than Sam] who wasn’t drafted in the first two rounds. He played two seasons for the Falcons as a fifth-round pick and was out of football after his third year. [/QUOTE] = clarifications ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-michael-sam-be-selected-regardless-of-his-playing-ability/688076/50 "2014-05-19T22:48:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sorry, I got this confused with the other Sam thread, where I discussed how the last 10 SEC DPOTYs turned out: Eddie George, Charles Woodson, Ricky Williams, and Carson Palmer all had pretty good careers. Reggie Bush definitely is turning it around and having a good career. Sam Bradford still has a chance to be okay. Mark Ingram still has a chance to be okay. Furthermore, thing about Heisman trophy winners is that it is almost always quarterbacks and running backs. Quarterbacks are definitely more difficult to project than any other position, and running backs are becoming a less valuable position in today’s NFL. Defensive players should be safer picks in general than quarterbacks and running backs. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-michael-sam-be-selected-regardless-of-his-playing-ability/688076/51 "2014-05-20T00:42:59Z")
True. But the point isn’t whether a comparison is fair. It’s just whether one is a good predictor of NFL success. You have to go back a really long way for George and Woodson - and frankly, if you’re going to, the list is not exactly filled with NFL studs: > [@](#): > > 1995 **Eddie George** Ohio State RB Sr. 1,460 > 1996 Danny Wuerffel Florida QB Sr. 1,363 > 1997 **Charles Woodson** Michigan CB Jr. 1,815 > 1998 _Ricky Williams_ Texas RB Sr. 2,355 > 1999 Ron Dayne Wisconsin RB Sr. 2,042 > 2000 Chris Weinke Florida State QB Sr. 1,628 > 2001 Eric Crouch Nebraska QB Sr. 770 > 2002 **Carson Palmer** USC QB Sr. 1,328 > 2003 Jason White Oklahoma QB Jr. 1,481 > 2004 Matt Leinart USC QB Jr. 1,325 > 2006 Troy Smith Ohio State QB Sr. 2,540 > 2007 Tim Tebow Florida QB Sop 1,957 > 2008 _Sam Bradford_ Oklahoma QB Sop 1,726 > 2009 _Mark Ingram_ Alabama RB Sop 1,304 > 2010 **Cam Newton** Auburn QB Jr. 2,263 > 2011 _Robert Griffin III_ Baylor University QB Jr. 1,687 I’ve bolded the guys who are stars and italicized the ones who are good players. I’ve underlined the ones who were useless. Bradford is a stretch; in four years as a starter he’s got one season with a 90+ QB rating. Ingram is a stretch too, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt. Now, here are the Big 12 guys (here I’ve also asterisked first round picks): > [@](#): > > 1997: **Grant Wistrom** \*, DE, Nebraska > 1998: _Dat Nguyen_, LB, Texas A&M > 1999: _Mark Simoneau_, LB, Kansas State > 2000: **Casey Hampton** \*, DL, Texas > 2001: _Roy Williams_\*, DB, Oklahoma > 2002: **Terence Newman** \*, DB, Kansas State > 2003: Teddy Lehman, LB, Oklahoma > 2004: _Derrick Johnson_\*, LB, Texas > 2005: Nick Reid, LB, Kansas > 2006: Rufus Alexander\*, LB, Oklahoma and Aaron Ross, DB, Texas > 2007: Jordon Dizon, LB, Colorado and Curtis Lofton LB Oklahoma > 2008: **Brian Orakpo** \*, DL, Texas > 2009: **Ndamukong Suh** \*, DL, Nebraska > 2010: _Prince Amukamara_\*, DB, Nebraska > 2011: A. J. Klein, LB, Iowa State and Frank Alexander, DE, Oklahoma I guess you could say Williams was a star since he went to a bunch of Pro Bowls but that was pretty much on hype. Reid, incidentally, wasn’t even drafted. To me, the draft spots are telling. All but two of the SEC guys were first rounders. Only half of the Big 12 guys were. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-michael-sam-be-selected-regardless-of-his-playing-ability/688076.md?page=2)