# should military snipers be considered serial killers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889 "2017-06-13T19:17:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/1 "2017-06-13T19:17:23Z")
In the GQ thread asking if there were any serial killers who used long range rifles, I mentioned that I thought that military snipers fit the definition. This drew the attention of \*\*engineer\_comp\_geek \*\* and others who felt that I was making some sort of moral point and that it didn’t belong in that thread. so 1. do military snipers fit literal definition of serial killers? ie: the killing of more than 2 people in a series of discreet events over a significant period of time. and 2. does pointing this out necessarily attach a moral judgement to the fact? In doing some research into what is generally considered to be a serial killer I’ve found that contract killers such as “Whitey” Bulger are ususally **not** considered to be serial killers as well. 3. Should they be? mc ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/2 "2017-06-13T19:24:22Z")
No. Serial killers implies murder. Military snipers (presumably) are doing their jobs under legal orders. By the strict definition, you could put any soldier involved in combat or fighter pilot in the same category if military operations fall under the definition. This would mean tens of thousands of combat soldiers in WWII were serial killers. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/3 "2017-06-13T19:33:43Z")
Bomber pilots must be spree killers then. They can kill hundreds of people within seconds, with the proper ordnance. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/4 "2017-06-13T19:38:29Z")
They are excluded by the definition you gave in the GQ thread: A serial killer is typically a person who murders three or more people, with the murders taking place over more than a month and including a significant break between them. Different authorities apply different criteria when designating serial killers, while most set a threshold of three murders, others extend it to four or lessen it to two. Killing in combat isn’t murder, so there ya go. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/5 "2017-06-13T19:50:19Z")
Like others have said, any definition of “serial killer” I can contrive that would include snipers would also encompass most of the military involved in killing bad guys: drone pilots, bomber crews, tank gunners, whoever’s in charge of launching TLAM’s for the Navy, etc. ETA: and it would be a definition that most people would politely label ‘non-standard’, I would think. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/6 "2017-06-13T19:52:27Z")
A sniper is just a particular role in the infantry. I don’t see why, if they are serial killers, common infantrymen are also not serial killers. Or fighter pilots with multiple victories. Was The Red Baron a serial killer? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/7 "2017-06-13T20:09:09Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > . . .Was The Red Baron a serial killer? “The murder of a man is still murder, even in wartime.” Manfred von Richthofen ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/8 "2017-06-13T20:10:40Z")
I’d say it’s just the way the term was phrased as ‘serial killer’ instead of ‘serial murderer’ that would lead to any misunderstanding. We apply it to cases of murder, people who could be charged with homicide, not people who take the lives of other in a legal manner. We don’t call hunters serial killers either. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/9 "2017-06-13T20:33:58Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > “The murder of a man is still murder, even in wartime.” > Manfred von Richthofen Was he a lawyer? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/10 "2017-06-13T20:45:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Was he a lawyer? He was, at least according to this quote, a humanitarian. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/11 "2017-06-13T20:46:28Z")
1. I think your definition of serial killer is off. The common definition is “A serial killer is defined as someone who commits more than three murders over a period that spans more than one month” which I believe is based on the definition formerly used by the FBI. After poking around a bit on google, the FBI apparently now defines it as a minimum of two murders with no reference to motive or time frame. Murder is defined as “the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another” and this is where your definition goes south. Military killings are not unlawful, and therefore are not murder. 1. Yes. By calling snipers serial killers, you are saying that legal military actions are murder, which is a very odd thing to say if you aren’t trying to make a moral statement about military killing. 2. There’s actually a fair amount of debate about this one, even by law enforcement professionals, criminologists, and psychologists. The main argument against is that contract killers are doing a job for money, not for their own personal motives or personal gratification. Personally, I think that while these killers are doing the job for money, I think they get some personal gratification out of it, so my opinion is that they should be considered serial killers. Another point to be made is that contract killers don’t decide who or when to kill. (to be clear, this is just my opinion as a poster. Even though I moderated the thread that spawned this, I am not acting as a moderator in this thread) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/12 "2017-06-13T21:02:47Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > He was, at least according to this quote, a humanitarian. Saying that a violent act has psychological or moral consequences on the person who carries it out is clearly not what the OP is getting at. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/13 "2017-06-13T21:04:13Z")
The meaning of the term “serial killer” in common usage clearly refers to _unlawful_ killing. So it would be more technically precise if the phrase were “serial murderer” - but that’s just a quirk of language for you. That’s what it means. The other semantic element that I think is present in common usage is “usually in service of abnormal psychological gratification” (per Wikipedia). In additional to the legality of the killing, I think this element also excludes soldiers. It would also exclude professional contract killers and terrorists _per se_. But there is almost certainly overlap. It may well be that some psychopaths who take psychological gratification from killing may be drawn to active military duty; and that some terrorists and perhaps _most_ contract killers are also sadistic psychopaths. I recall that in Jon Ronson’s book _The Psychopath Test_ there was an example of a female psychopath in the U.K. who (unsuccessfully) tried to find a legal outlet for her homicidal tendencies by joining the military. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/14 "2017-06-13T21:17:52Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > “The murder of a man is still murder, even in wartime.” > Manfred von Richthofen Well, obviously this moves beyond talking about the generally accepted definition of the term “serial killer”, or even the usual legal/moral meaning of “murder” in general. In a philosophical debate about whether all war is equivalent to mass murder, it’s probably also rather important to consider the degree of culpability of the soldier whose finger pulls the trigger relative to the political leaders who make the bigger decisions. And come to that, whether killing is _ever_ justified. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/15 "2017-06-13T21:18:22Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > (to be clear, this is just my opinion as a poster. Even though I moderated the thread that spawned this, I am not acting as a moderator in this thread) And I appreciate your response I (like Herr von Richthofen) don’t differentiate types of killing, but I do recognize that society has said that it will not prosecute certain types of killing, and I don’t disagree with that. I think we are lying to ourselves, however, if we don’t admit that we are asking soldiers to commit murder on our behalf. mc ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/16 "2017-06-13T21:46:55Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > And I appreciate your response > > I (like Herr von Richthofen) don’t differentiate types of killing, but I do recognize that society has said that it will not prosecute certain types of killing, and I don’t disagree with that. > I think we are lying to ourselves, however, if we don’t admit that we are asking soldiers to commit murder on our behalf. > > mc A couple of curiousities: 1. Do you generally use the term “murder” or “killing”? 2. Who would you ascribe the label from 1) to in an incident like [this (Three people were killed after slippery roads caused a massive pileup involving 30 to 40 cars on Interstate 96 in Michigan)](https://weather.com/news/weather/news/massive-fatal-pileup-michigan-lake-effect-snow)? Everyone involved? Just the person who’s vehicle hit the victims? What if he stopped in time, but someone behind him pushed his vehicle into the victims? The person who made the mistake that started the whole chain of events? No one because you differentiate between intentional and unintentional killings? ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/17 "2017-06-13T21:47:57Z")
Don’t be silly. No. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/18 "2017-06-13T22:24:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > 1. Do you generally use the term “murder” or “killing”? > . . . As others have mentioned, this question seems to be the crux of the situation. For me, murder is the killing of a human (we’ll leave whether non humans can be murdered for another thread). Intentional or not; legal or not. If you take the life of a human\* you have murdered them. Even if society has asked you to do it. Even if the circumstances are such that society has said that it will not punish you, and even if I agree that you should not be punished, it is still, to me, murder. This may seem like I’m playing word games; being overly pedantic in my definition. But I see the loss of life, **any** life under any situation, to be a tragedy. I dont recognize “good” killing versus “bad” killing. However justified you or I may find a killing, it should never be considered anything other than murder, it should never be praised, it should never be celebrated. A human being is dead. \*as for your example, an accident where people die is, while certainly a tragedy, neither murder or killing. Unless it can be shown that the accident was caused by the reckless negligence of someone. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/19 "2017-06-13T22:39:47Z")
If you get to arbitrarily decide what murder means, do I get to arbitrarily decide what a human is? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/20 "2017-06-13T22:42:10Z")
Well, you just created the need for a new word to replace “murder”, since we as a society have to distinguish between lawful and unlawful killing. Not sure what the point of that is. It’s like saying: I consider blue and green to be the same. OK, so new we either need a new word for blue or for green. Thanks! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889.md?page=2)