# should military snipers be considered serial killers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889 "2017-06-13T19:17:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/21 "2017-06-13T23:03:45Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > As others have mentioned, this question seems to be the crux of the situation. > > For me, murder is the killing of a human (we’ll leave whether non humans can be murdered for another thread). Intentional or not; legal or not. If you take the life of a human\* you have murdered them. Even if society has asked you to do it. Even if the circumstances are such that society has said that it will not punish you, and even if I agree that you should not be punished, it is still, to me, murder. This may seem like I’m playing word games; being overly pedantic in my definition. But I see the loss of life, **any** life under any situation, to be a tragedy. I dont recognize “good” killing versus “bad” killing. However justified you or I may find a killing, it should never be considered anything other than murder, it should never be praised, it should never be celebrated. A human being is dead. > > \*as for your example, an accident where people die is, while certainly a tragedy, neither murder or killing. Unless it can be shown that the accident was caused by the reckless negligence of someone. We already have a perfectly good word for that, homicide. You don’t have to make a different word mean something it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/22 "2017-06-13T23:19:35Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > We already have a perfectly good word for that, homicide. You don’t have to make a different word mean something it doesn’t. **HurricaneDitka** asked me if I use the word “murder” or “killing”, and I answered that they are the same for me. I was not attempting to redefine the word murder. The OP was about the term “serial killer” and whether or not it should be applied to military snipers. Do you or **John Mace** or **Ravenman** have anything to add to that? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/23 "2017-06-13T23:32:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, you just created the need for a new word to replace “murder”, since we as a society have to distinguish between lawful and unlawful killing. Not sure what the point of that is. It’s like saying: I consider blue and green to be the same. OK, so new we either need a new word for blue or for green. Thanks! I assume the point is that “murder” has all sorts of negative connotations that he wants to enlist in his argument that “I see the loss of life, **any** life under any situation, to be a tragedy.” Personally, I think the world became a little bit better place to live on the day OBL died. And Syria becomes a slightly better place to live with every death of an ISIS leader. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/24 "2017-06-13T23:34:09Z")
mikecurtis, why did you single out snipers in the OP, and not infantryman, artillery crew members, bomber pilots, etc? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/25 "2017-06-13T23:38:23Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > **HurricaneDitka** asked me if I use the word “murder” or “killing”, and I answered that they are the same for me. I was not attempting to redefine the word murder. > The OP was about the term “serial killer” and whether or not it should be applied to military snipers. Do you or **John Mace** or **Ravenman** have anything to add to that? Yeah. Sometimes words serve multiple purposes, and have more than one meaning. (Are we anywhere near Groundhog Day, as this is sounding like the “impeachment” discussion?) When people say “serial killer”, they really mean, and should say, serial murder. Most people understand that. And when I said I jus dialed your number on my cell, do you think I must have a rotary dial on my skin cell? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/26 "2017-06-13T23:46:10Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > mikecurtis, why did you single out snipers in the OP, and not infantryman, artillery crew members, bomber pilots, etc? 'Cause they’re pussies? Gotta keep a safe distance and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/27 "2017-06-13T23:51:42Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > …For me, murder is the killing of a human (we’ll leave whether non humans can be murdered for another thread). Intentional or not; legal or not. If you take the life of a human\* you have murdered them. Even if society has asked you to do it. Even if the circumstances are such that society has said that it will not punish you, and even if I agree that you should not be punished, it is still, to me, murder. This may seem like I’m playing word games; being overly pedantic in my definition. But I see the loss of life, **any** life under any situation, to be a tragedy. I dont recognize “good” killing versus “bad” killing. However justified you or I may find a killing, it should never be considered anything other than murder, it should never be praised, it should never be celebrated. A human being is dead… I don’t really see why you think it strengthens your argument by insisting that a word means something that it simply _does not_ in the English language. That’s not being “overly pedantic” in your definition, it’s being _wrong_ in your definition. To my mind, this attempt to redefine words is just a distraction from the point that you want to make. I don’t see why you can’t acknowledge the distinction that society traditionally makes between murder and lawful killing, or between morally wrong and morally justifiable killing, and then make your arguments for why those distinctions should not hold. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/28 "2017-06-13T23:55:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > mikecurtis, why did you single out snipers in the OP, and not infantryman, artillery crew members, bomber pilots, etc? Because it all started in this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=828507&highlight=serial+killers) about serial killers who use long range rifles. mc ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/29 "2017-06-14T00:05:55Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > **HurricaneDitka** asked me if I use the word “murder” or “killing”, and I answered that they are the same for me. I was not attempting to redefine the word murder. > The OP was about the term “serial killer” and whether or not it should be applied to military snipers. Do you or **John Mace** or **Ravenman** have anything to add to that? But that’s exactly what you are doing if they are equivalent to you. Murder has a meaning, and it is different than killing. You can’t just use some internal meaning to something and expect people to understand you. In any case, the standard definition of serial killer does not use your definition. So is a military sniper a serial killer by your definition? Well, I guess so. Does that mean anything? Probably not much to anybody except you. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/30 "2017-06-14T00:13:16Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I don’t really see why you think it strengthens your argument by insisting that a word means something that it simply _does not_ in the English language. That’s not being “overly pedantic” in your definition, it’s being _wrong_ in your definition. > > To my mind, this attempt to redefine words is just a distraction from the point that you want to make. I don’t see why you can’t acknowledge the distinction that society traditionally makes between murder and lawful killing, or between morally wrong and morally justifiable killing, and then make your arguments for why those distinctions should not hold. I do recognize the distinction that society traditionally makes between murder and lawful killing, and that’s where this whole thing started for me. That the term “serial killers” could contain both subsets of legal serial killers and illegal serial killers. But, as you and others pointed out above, the term really should be “serial murderers” as that’s what most people hear anyway. and I’m not trying to redefine the term murder, I am merely pointing out that, to me, the murder/killing thing is a distinction without a difference. mc ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/31 "2017-06-14T00:13:58Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Because it all started in this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=828507&highlight=serial+killers) about serial killers who use long range rifles. > > mc So if some monster is holding an 8 year old girl hostage and threatening to harm her, you would view the act of killing the monster to save the girl as equivalent to the monster killing the girl? That’s nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/32 "2017-06-14T00:23:54Z")
Let’s pretend you are an alien, observing (invisibly, of course) Earth. You see a gun shoot and kill a person. Since you are an alien, you don’t know why. Is it a military action, a deranged homo sapiens, or the way humans wake up in the morning? So you report back to the Mother Ship on HS habits. What difference would it make in your report what we called it? It’s a murder regardless of your political affiliation or sympathies. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/33 "2017-06-14T00:36:45Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > What difference would it make in your report what we called it? It’s a murder regardless of your political affiliation or sympathies. No, it’s a HOMICIDE regardless of sympathies / political affiliations. Most of us would not label it a “murder” unless certain conditions were met, the most obvious ones here being intentional and unjustified. The aliens can write whatever they like in their report, but if they were trying to write the report in English, using the common definitions for our words, they’d call it a “homicide” without knowing additional details. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/34 "2017-06-14T00:37:15Z")
I guess we can just come up with a new blanket term, how about “life enders”. Any other words the OP wants to arbitrarily replace according to the vernacular that resides in his brain alone? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/35 "2017-06-14T01:02:03Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Let’s pretend you are an alien, observing (invisibly, of course) Earth. > > You see a gun shoot and kill a person. Since you are an alien, you don’t know why. Is it a military action, a deranged homo sapiens, or the way humans wake up in the morning? > > So you report back to the Mother Ship on HS habits. What difference would it make in your report what we called it? It’s a murder regardless of your political affiliation or sympathies. I can see you have only been observing these Hyoo-mans for a short period of time. I’ve been observing them for decades, and although their language is not always logical, I have come to appreciate the way they use it. They have different words for killing people depending on the motivation of the killer. It’s important that you communicate that information back to our home planet, lest the High Council there gets the wrong idea. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/36 "2017-06-14T01:03:17Z")
Is this just a convoluted anti-abortion argument? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/37 "2017-06-14T01:08:05Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Is this just a convoluted anti-abortion argument? I think it’s a convoluted all-killings-are-tragic argument, but I’m not certain. Your post seems to be the first mention of abortion / babies / fetuses in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/38 "2017-06-14T01:10:33Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > **HurricaneDitka** asked me if I use the word “murder” or “killing”, and I answered that they are the same for me. I was not attempting to redefine the word murder. > The OP was about the term “serial killer” and whether or not it should be applied to military snipers. Do you or **John Mace** or **Ravenman** have anything to add to that? Let’s say that a military sniper kills 50 ISIL terrorists. You call him a murderer. Got it. I can argue that no human was killed. Same logic. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/39 "2017-06-14T01:11:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Your post seems to be the first mention of abortion / babies / fetuses in this thread. Well yeah, that’s what I meant by “convoluted”. Although I probably should have also used an additional “'roundabout” in my description. The fact that abortion was never explicitly mentioned would be the “roundabout” aspect. And I’m probably wrong just throwing it out there, the OP is a weak argument either way. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889/40 "2017-06-14T01:25:26Z")
Ok. So by most people’s definitions (including the one I first posted in the other thread) a “serial killer” is limited murderers which are unlawful killers. By law, military killings are not usually unlawful. So by this line of reasoning the answer to the OP “should military snipers be considered serial killers?” is NO. Follow up question: Should sniping be considered unlawful? Recognizing that it currently is not. consider: The targets of snipers are often non combatants, sometimes civilian, often done in non hostile theaters. and almost always unarmed and unaware that they are targets. mc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-military-snipers-be-considered-serial-killers/788889.md?page=3)