# Should Mom-and-Pops That Forgo Gay Weddings Be Destroyed? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 3, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716 "2015-04-03T16:37:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/241 "2015-04-07T14:06:11Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > So… ZPG. … you have no problem with someone refusing you service because you are a thieving gypsy? Because that’s their right? I’ve had it happen plenty of times. I just chalk that business off as one less to work with ever again and I would warn other Roma (and people like us) about trying to use them. Over time sometimes peoples attitudes change especially if they become acquainted with other businesses that do work with Roma and enjoy them as customers, but throwing temper tantrums and filing lawsuits only serves to alienate merchants that would ordinarily work with our community. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/242 "2015-04-07T15:10:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Out of curiosity, have you ever told an anecdote on this board, or read about an anecdote on this board, that didn’t have that lesson? I’m a bit surprised it didn’t end with “… and all caused by Obamacare.” ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/243 "2015-04-07T15:14:48Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > You avoided my question about being Roma. If a business refused you service because you are Roma, would you think that was fair and acceptable? I told you it happens frequently. The fact that I don’t bitch about it on the Dope or really spend more than 30 seconds thinking about the matter should tell you enough. Their business. Their rules. The same law that allows me to throw out customers I can’t stand protects them also and I think that is a fair and acceptable law to respect regardless of the motivations of people using it. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/244 "2015-04-07T16:08:23Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I find it a bit rich to hear people praise boycotting businesses when if the same tactics were applied to minority owned businesses to drive them out, the result would be screams of oppression. Those screams of oppression would be correct and moral, because its 100% wrong to discriminate based on someone’s race. It is, however, 100% moral to discriminate based on someone’s bigotry, and its something I encourage everyone to do. The thing you and others who believe like you haven’t answered is how selling a item to a person automatically means you support their lifestyle. Its a simple question but everyone who believes as you do has dodged it. Just answer it. If you sell a burger to an adulterer, does that mean you support adultery? If you sell a car to a guy who is abusive to his kids, does that mean you support the abuse? You’re going to say that in many places, sexual orientation is not a protected class. Well how wonderful for you, being such a righteous moral crusader that you only do things that are legally allowed. So if there’s a loophole and you take advantage of it, you’re perfectly fine and right in the eyes of your god because, hey! if he wanted the rule to be stricter, he would have written footnotes to the 10 commandments! So everyone who had slaves or lynched blacks before the law was passed to eliminate them was just fine and upstanding citizens, following the law, right? Sexual orientation is something that one is born with. Its as a part of someone as being straight is to you. Those of us who are actually good people can see it. It matters little that there aren’t laws protecting sexual orientation yet, it is immoral to discriminate against them. You just have to accept that you’re not a good person. Or keep lying to yourself, whatever ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/245 "2015-04-07T16:14:01Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > You’re going to say that in many places, sexual orientation is not a protected class. Well how wonderful for you, being such a righteous moral crusader that you only do things that are legally allowed. I’m pretty sure she’s saying in this thread that she racially discriminates. IOW, she is not doing what’s legally allowed at all. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/246 "2015-04-07T16:23:20Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I told you it happens frequently. The fact that I don’t bitch about it on the Dope or really spend more than 30 seconds thinking about the matter should tell you enough. Their business. Their rules. The same law that allows me to throw out customers I can’t stand protects them also and I think that is a fair and acceptable law to respect regardless of the motivations of people using it. Almost right, except precisely wrong. Here’s what you should say: > [@](#): > > The same law that DOES NOT allow me to throw out customers I can’t stand protects them also If you’re throwing out customers based on their race, sex, national origin, or other protected class, you’re violating a half-century of federal law and will hopefully be the subject of a lawsuit (hint: you won’t be; what protects your violation of the law is lax enforcement). It’s not worth telling us to grow up, by the way, because someone who was born the day after this law passed is already fifty years old. No American child has not lived under this law. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/247 "2015-04-07T17:09:53Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The people who claim Biblical law as the basis for their prejudice obviously aren’t. Well, unless the New Testament passage in question declares that the laws on food and mixed fabrics no longer apply, while the ones about sexual immorality are just as binding as they ever were. But hey, that just proves that the Apostles were bigoted homophobes and so the passage can be discounted. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/248 "2015-04-07T17:11:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Almost right, except precisely wrong. Here’s what you should say: > > If you’re throwing out customers based on their race, sex, national origin, or other protected class, you’re violating a half-century of federal law and will hopefully be the subject of a lawsuit (hint: you won’t be; what protects your violation of the law is lax enforcement). > > It’s not worth telling us to grow up, by the way, because someone who was born the day after this law passed is already fifty years old. No American child has not lived under this law. Perhaps principle would be better term for the concept. The federal law you seem to be clinging to (which takes, but one court case to strike down, sometimes I think about being that case) does not say that a shop owner has to subject themselves to unpleasant situations, rude or dangerous behavior to conduct their business, nor do I believe if the matter were brought before the Supreme Court in a truly equitable fashion, engage in behavior they consider immoral. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/249 "2015-04-07T17:16:56Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > You make that decision based on thier culture and not them as an individual? Your culture is who you are unless you make a make a very strident point to denounce it. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/250 "2015-04-07T17:23:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Which cultures in particular are we talking about here? When I played violin as a teenager with a Roma ensemble I always loved working Jewish weddings because the men never bothered me. I think it was the most pleasant money I ever made being able to just do my job and nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/251 "2015-04-07T18:43:23Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > This is not a harmless difference of opinion, like “I like red, and you prefer blue.” These people are hruting my loved ones. I’ll say that again-- these people are doing things that cause active harm to some of the poeple I care about most in this world. > > These actions encourage parents to disown their kids. They encourage gay teenagers to feel fear and self-loathing. They encourage gay couples to hide. They encourage hate, fear, self-loathing, lie-living, broken families , beatings, and suicide. > > Of people that I care about. > > It’s not harmless. It’s not an opinion. It’s about making sure that gay people know that they are hated and that they get the maximize social penalty possible for who they are. It’s about creating an aptmosphere of casual htred so that kids and people on the fence are encouraged to be comfortable with the “hate the fags” side. It’s about hurting people, causing them pain, running them out of town, and perpetuating hate. > > Fuck. That. Fuck their business. Fuck their fucked up little opinion. These guys are on the wrong side of history. We’ve slowly, very slowly, been working towards a world where everyone deserves human dignity, and these people are bravely holding on to some of the last bastions of pointless hatred, with tenacity found only in people who understand they are about to lose. And the sooner they lose, the sooner they are pushed deep into the margins of society where stupid prejudice belongs, the sooner everyone else can get on with their lives. I know that this is from early in the thread, but it sums the whole thing up so well. I may need to keep a copy of this around…mind if I quote you when unsavory things come up in my Facebook feed? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/252 "2015-04-07T19:17:54Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Perhaps principle would be better term for the concept. The federal law you seem to be clinging to (which takes, but one court case to strike down, sometimes I think about being that case) does not say that a shop owner has to subject themselves to unpleasant situations, rude or dangerous behavior to conduct their business, nor do I believe if the matter were brought before the Supreme Court in a truly equitable fashion, engage in behavior they consider immoral. I love the idea that citing a law means “clinging to” the law. You’re very poetic! Alas, entertaining though I’d find it for you to offer your own discriminatory practices for the court, I might first suggest you read up on [Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Atlanta_Motel,_Inc._v._United_States). You might not find your court case makes it very far on this settled issue of law. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > When I played violin as a teenager with a Roma ensemble I always loved working Jewish weddings because the men never bothered me. I think it was the most pleasant money I ever made being able to just do my job and nothing else. Ah, but that’s not the culture we’re specifically talking about, is it? You were asked which specific cultures you do NOT feel comfortable working with. To be clearer: are there cultures whose members you deny service to, based on their membership in that culture, and if so, which specific cultures are we talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/253 "2015-04-07T19:24:30Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In the case of many of the things, especially wedding related items such as special cakes, venues, musicians, etc., these are not necessarily things that other people may so freely obtain. As far as I know no straight couple can compel anyone to make them a cake or play music at their wedding if the artist (yeah, that’s what craftsmen and craftswomen are, despite the humble origins of our mediums) doesn’t want them as a client. The fact that not everyhthing is always available is not in dispute. Sometimes there arent enough seats on the bus and you physically cant sit where you want. That has nothing much to do with the topic at hand. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/254 "2015-04-07T21:17:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You were asked which specific cultures you do NOT feel comfortable working with. To be clearer: are there cultures whose members you deny service to, based on their membership in that culture, and if so, which specific cultures are we talking about? In my spiritual advisory practice I don’t take American born black male clients. In thirty plus years of reading cards, palms and charts I never had one that wasn’t an asshole, so a few years ago I told the scheduler at my shops not to book any appointments with them on my schedule. I don’t work American black events as a musician or an entertainer. I have had too many bad experiences. I have had to brandish too many weapons because of creeps that think musicians are prostitutes. And if anyone ever tries to sue me I will gladly dredge thirty plus years detailing these experiences into court (I rant in my journals a lot). ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/255 "2015-04-07T21:24:29Z")
Those experiences and journals will get you absolutely nowhere in court, but dream on. **ZPG Zealot** , you are… [checks forum] Never mind, wake me up when this gets moved to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/256 "2015-04-07T21:24:31Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The fact that not everyhthing is always available is not in dispute. Sometimes there arent enough seats on the bus and you physically cant sit where you want. That has nothing much to do with the topic at hand. Neither do bus seats. The topic at hand is whether or not a small business should be destroyed because they do not care to take certain clients. I think there is more than enough room in the American marketplace of nonessential items to give small business owner’s choices also. Didn’t forcing someone to do work against the will become illegal with the 13th amendment? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/257 "2015-04-07T21:27:29Z")
I’m curious about the logistics of that. Did you put up with these American born black assholes for 30 whole years, then suddenly decide enough was enough? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/258 "2015-04-07T21:33:08Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’m curious about the logistics of that. Did you put up with these American born black assholes for 30 whole years, then suddenly decide enough was enough? Actually, yes. I like to give everybody a chance, but after 30 years, enough is enough. When a particular type of client always seems to a problem, sometimes it’s better just to send that category of client elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/259 "2015-04-07T21:36:14Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In my spiritual advisory practice I don’t take American born black male clients. In thirty plus years of reading cards, palms and charts I never had one that wasn’t an asshole, so a few years ago I told the scheduler at my shops not to book any appointments with them on my schedule. I don’t work American black events as a musician or an entertainer. I have had too many bad experiences. I have had to brandish too many weapons because of creeps that think musicians are prostitutes. And if anyone ever tries to sue me I will gladly dredge thirty plus years detailing these experiences into court (I rant in my journals a lot). I would be super-glad for you to do that, as well, and if you’ll be kind enough to send me the name of your business, I’ll do what I can to achieve this goal for you. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/260 "2015-04-07T21:39:30Z")
There’s an interesting twist on Civil Rights laws: how do you deal with a charlatan who refuses to scam people based on their race? I mean, how do you argue that a person’s been harmed by a racism-based \*refusal \*to victimize them? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716.md?page=14)