# Should Mom-and-Pops That Forgo Gay Weddings Be Destroyed? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 3, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716 "2015-04-03T16:37:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/261 "2015-04-07T21:44:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There’s an interesting twist on Civil Rights laws: how do you deal with a charlatan who refuses to scam people based on their race? I mean, how do you argue that a person’s been harmed by a racism-based \*refusal \*to victimize them? It just proves the theory advanced in GD a few weeks ago: Black people really are the luckiest people in the country! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/262 "2015-04-07T21:46:24Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There’s an interesting twist on Civil Rights laws: how do you deal with a charlatan who refuses to scam people based on their race? I mean, how do you argue that a person’s been harmed by a racism-based \*refusal \*to victimize them? 🙂 As a related question, could a black person complain about a white supremacist who refused to sell him meth? Or is that under the “quitcher bitchin about extra crimes in your criminal sales” legal theory, whatever that’s called? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/263 "2015-04-07T21:46:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I would be super-glad for you to do that, as well, and if you’ll be kind enough to send me the name of your business, I’ll do what I can to achieve this goal for you. You actually think you’re helping eliminate discrimination by suggesting that a woman has no right to safe and comfortable working conditions if it offends some creeps concept of racial pride? If someone doesn’t want to work for you or with you, they have every right to say no. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/264 "2015-04-07T21:47:52Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You actually think you’re helping eliminate discrimination by suggesting that a woman has no right to safe and comfortable working conditions if it offends some creeps concept of racial pride? No, that’s not even in the same county as what I think. > [@](#): > > If someone doesn’t want to work for you or with you, they have every right to say no. Actually, they don’t have every right to say no, if their reason is a racist reason like yours. One of the rights to say no they don’t have is the legal right to say no. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/265 "2015-04-07T21:48:33Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Neither do bus seats. No, but bus seats are a relevant analogy. > [@](#): > > The topic at hand is whether or not a small business should be destroyed because they do not care to take certain clients. I think there’s a general principle that if a business chooses not to comply with a just law, that it must face the consequences of that choice, which may indeed be destruction. > [@](#): > > I think there is more than enough room in the American marketplace of nonessential items to give small business owner’s choices also. Except in cases where there isn’t. I don’t agree anyway. Nobody should need to endure even reduced choice because of arbitrary prejudices against their group. > [@](#): > > Didn’t forcing someone to do work against the will become illegal with the 13th amendment? I had to look that up (I’m not American). Not relevant. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/266 "2015-04-07T22:08:08Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I had to look that up (I’m not American). Not relevant. It’s very relevant when it comes to musicians and entertainers. Believe it or not, performances are hard work and the money is not the only motivation because there are easier ways to make it than playing parties. When entertainers at least, appreciate their audience, it’s work they love. When artists hate the audience, it’s a horrible experience. Forcing someone to work under those conditions with the threat of a lawsuit, is despicable. I would tell people, there’s always another vendor. You can find someone who doesn’t despite you because hiring someone that hates you is going to make everyone miserable. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/267 "2015-04-07T22:17:58Z")
I feel like we’ve strayed quite a long way from any kind of typical example of the topic. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/268 "2015-04-07T22:22:41Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > When artists hate the audience, it’s a horrible experience. Forcing someone to work under those conditions with the threat of a lawsuit, is despicable. I would tell people, there’s always another vendor. You can find someone who doesn’t despite you because hiring someone that hates you is going to make everyone miserable. So, I’m supposed to be against requiring these performers to perform because they hate black people and therefore being around black people gives them a sad? Shockingly, this isn’t a very good way to gain my sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/269 "2015-04-07T22:36:20Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It’s very relevant when it comes to musicians and entertainers. Believe it or not, performances are hard work and the money is not the only motivation because there are easier ways to make it than playing parties. When entertainers at least, appreciate their audience, it’s work they love. When artists hate the audience, it’s a horrible experience. Forcing someone to work under those conditions with the threat of a lawsuit, is despicable. I would tell people, there’s always another vendor. You can find someone who doesn’t despite you because hiring someone that hates you is going to make everyone miserable. You mean, kind of like when you don’t like group of people and you work as cashier in a store and you have to ring up person day after day, hour after hour, day after day. How totally and completely oppressive to store cashiers!!! ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/270 "2015-04-07T22:38:41Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, I’m supposed to be against requiring these performers to perform because they hate black people and therefore being around black people gives them a sad? > > Shockingly, this isn’t a very good way to gain my sympathy. I think you should be against any performer being blackmailed into performing. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/271 "2015-04-07T22:43:55Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > You mean, kind of like when you don’t like group of people and you work as cashier in a store and you have to ring up person day after day, hour after hour, day after day. How totally and completely oppressive to store cashiers!!! I never heard of cashiering referred to as an art form. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/272 "2015-04-07T22:44:10Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I think you should be against any performer being blackmailed into performing. what makes performers so special? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/273 "2015-04-07T22:45:10Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I think you should be against any performer being blackmailed into performing. I think you need to develop a rational definition of “blackmail.” ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/274 "2015-04-07T22:49:50Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I think you should be against any performer being blackmailed into performing. I’m okay with obliging everyone in society not to use their business as a tool for discrimination. You call that “blackmail.” I call that “a gross misuse of the dictionary.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/275 "2015-04-07T23:06:48Z")
I have a great idea for a gay wedding service. It will do cakes, catering, decorations, the whole shebang. And I’ll call it Adam and Steve’s. Who else is in? > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I have had to brandish too many weapons because of creeps that think musicians are prostitutes. And if anyone ever tries to sue me I will gladly dredge thirty plus years detailing these experiences into court (I rant in my journals a lot). Yeah, good luck with THAT. Here’s hoping you also don’t act the same way in job as a librarian. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/276 "2015-04-07T23:07:47Z")
“But your honor, I told my diary in 1994 that a black guy tried to shake my hand!” ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/277 "2015-04-07T23:12:04Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’m okay with obliging everyone in society not to use their business as a tool for discrimination. You call that “blackmail.” I call that “a gross misuse of the dictionary.” In the spirit of unity, can we all laugh at this zinger? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/278 "2015-04-07T23:59:48Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Oh, your choice of comparison says plenty. Cub Mistress wrote of performing the same duties for everyone, regardless of their nature, you come up with a list of completely different actions. > > You appear to be writing that baking a cake is equal to helping, but that if the baker knows it’s for a gay wedding it becomes condoning. I’m writing appear because despite ample evidence to the contrary I still find it hard to believe people can have such diminished capacity for thought and still be able to type. Of course I changed her examples inorder to make a better point. I’m not surprised, however, of your own, very obvious, diminished capacity if you don’t get the difference between a taxi driver getting a rapist home and a taxi driver taking the rapist to rape someone. > [@Mangetout](#): > > That’s a really weird thing to say. Services are to be offered to everyone. Everyone should be able to choose which services they wish to participate in. What if I don’t buy a cake at Jake’s _just because I don’t want a cake_? Should I be obliged to buy my cake quota just to be fair? > > If you meant that it isn’t right for John to try to rally a campaign against Jake’s bakery _just because of one of Jake’s private beliefs he found out about, that in no way impacts Jake’s service as a business_, I think that argument might have merit. People should be allowed to believe whatever the hell they like. It’s the same, without the quota. “Services are to be offered to everyone” is a legal consideration, not a moral one. People should follow the law or pay the consequences. A won’t do business with B because A disapproves of B’s actions. B won’t do business with A because B disapproves of A’s actions. It’s perfectly correct for you to try to rally a campaign against Jakes’s bakery for whatever the hell freaking reasons you may wish. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The second one isn’t “GOOD”, it’s neutral (if anything). The first one is discrimination, just like it would be if Jake thought interracial marriages were wrong. A won’t do business with B because A disapproves of B’s actions. B won’t do business with A because B disapproves of A’s actions. I may think the disapproval is stupid, but largely support their right to do so. > [@even\_sven](#): > > Well, thank goodness that’s not the situation here, then! > > Nobody is promoting a boycott because Jake has a personal belief that gay weddings are bad. If people boycotted every random bigot spouting off at the dinner table, there wouldn’t be a lot of places to shop in many small towns. > > People are promoting a boycott because of Jake’s actions. Jake is using his business to publicly ostracize gay people. Jake’s _actions_ are hurting people by making them into social outcasts and normalizing discrimination in the community. > > This is not about personal beliefs. This is about equality in front of the law. I don’t care if you hate me, but you have no right to harm me because of that. Dude, not baking a cake is “ostracise” and makes "social outcasts?! You could say that, by clearly being bigots they signal people not to buy there. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Uh, no, that’s not perfectly normal. I’ve never encountered that in my life, and I suspect that if you took a poll, very few people here have, either. This behavior is beyond the pale. > > Change the second one to “…because Jake refuses to serve gay weddings because he thinks they’re wrong,” and sure, it’s good. Consider another formulation: > > a) Jake’s bus won’t let black people sit near the front because Jake thinks black people are inferior to white people=Discrimination. > b) John won’t ride Jake’s bus because John thinks Jake’s discrimination is wrong=Good. > > This is nearly exactly the formulation used in the most famous and successful boycott in US history (and I limit it the US only because Gandhi’s salt boycott may internationally be more famous, I’m not sure). The application of economic pressure in order to pressure folks to end unethical practices is ethical **to the extent that compelling an end to these practices is ethical**. > > Folks tend to want to exame boycotts in a theoretical vacuum, and though the tactic is always good or always bad. But that’s silly. It’s not something like terrorism or lynching, where you can set some pretty absolute rules. It’s something like passing laws or writing articles, where passing an unjust law or writing a dishonest article is unethical, but passing a just law or writing an honest article is ethical. You gotta examine the content. A won’t do business with B because A disapproves of B’s actions. B won’t do business with A because B disapproves of A’s actions. In the US buses are ususally a governement monopoly and discrimination was enforced by law. I reject that the governement make anyone discriminate. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/279 "2015-04-08T00:16:38Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > A won’t do business with B because A disapproves of B’s actions. > B won’t do business with A because B disapproves of A’s actions. Right. A is being a douchebag, because B’s actions are not a problem and are not affecting anyone (that is, B is marrying another dude). B is being perfectly reasonable, because A’s actions are a problem and are affecting others (refusing to offer a service on equitable terms). Your reduction of the whole thing to letters and abstract nouns removes precisely the fundamental difference between A and B. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716/280 "2015-04-08T01:02:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Right. A is being a douchebag, because B’s actions are not a problem and are not affecting anyone (that is, B is marrying another dude). > > B is being perfectly reasonable, because A’s actions are a problem and are affecting others (refusing to offer a service on equitable terms). > > Your reduction of the whole thing to letters and abstract nouns removes precisely the fundamental difference between A and B. If freeman of the land A wishes to contract with freeman of the land B, but freeman of the land B does not establish joinder with A … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-mom-and-pops-that-forgo-gay-weddings-be-destroyed/716716.md?page=15)