# Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2017, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310 "2017-08-11T02:14:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/21 "2017-08-11T14:01:10Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > Similarly, Charles Manson and his minions were, in 1969, caught virtually red-handed and arrested. Iirc Manson et all were picked up on vehicular theft charges. It was a jailhouse confession to another inmate which tied them to the murders. Imho, “red-handed” would mean that they had red hands from the blood of the murder—e.g. with direct evidence in plain sight You may want to fish around for another anecdote for your case. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/22 "2017-08-11T14:06:54Z")
“Police administering justice” sounds good until you realize that they might mistake you, your nephew, or your daughter for someone "caught red handed. " ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/23 "2017-08-11T14:20:56Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > How about Richard Jewell? My first thought, too. And there was also Richard Kimble. Had he been killed, the one armed man might still be loose today. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/24 "2017-08-11T14:40:40Z")
Considering the alarming frequency of innocent, unarmed black people murdered by police officers (and yes, some white people too, like that recent Australian lady), I am surprised every time someone like Dylan Roof is apprehended alive. So in the sense of 'if police are telling the truth about fearing for their lives every time a black man attempts to buy a toy gun in Walmart, or an unarmed autistic person is sitting in a parking lot with a Tonka truck, then to be consistent, _a lot_ more murder suspects should be killed during arrest, if not all of them". That doesn’t mean I actually support extrajudicial killing. It just means I see right through the “feared for my life” bullshit. If you don’t fear for your life when arresting Dylan Roof, or [when talking to this guy](http://imgur.com/knFLjw1), there’s _no way_ you feared for your life when you executed a 12 year old on sight for carrying a BB gun. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/25 "2017-08-11T14:52:37Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Considering the alarming frequency of innocent, unarmed black people murdered by police officers (and yes, some white people too, like that recent Australian lady), I am surprised every time someone like Dylan Roof is apprehended alive. > > So in the sense of 'if police are telling the truth about fearing for their lives every time a black man attempts to buy a toy gun in Walmart, or an unarmed autistic person is sitting in a parking lot with a Tonka truck, then to be consistent, _a lot_ more murder suspects should be killed during arrest, if not all of them". > > That doesn’t mean I actually support extrajudicial killing. It just means I see right through the “feared for my life” bullshit. If you don’t fear for your life when arresting Dylan Roof, or [when talking to this guy](http://imgur.com/knFLjw1), there’s _no way_ you feared for your life when you executed a 12 year old on sight for carrying a BB gun. Roof was arrested after a traffic stop, there is no information I have heard that he brandished any guns during the stop. Why should the arresting officers fear a skinny kid with no weapon? Also, I don’t think the same officers were involved in the other two incidents. ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/26 "2017-08-11T14:53:32Z")
Oh, I don’t think this would be a good idea. Being a “murder suspect” doesn’t mean that you actually did anything. The cops don’t need to be executioners! We need a proper trial and conviction here in the USA. At least, I’d like to think so… ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/27 "2017-08-11T15:47:16Z")
Has somebody been reading Deepak Chopra and watching “What the bleep do we know?” I like what Murray Gell-Mann called it, “Quantum Flapdoodle”. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/28 "2017-08-11T15:50:48Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Has somebody been reading Deepak Chopra and watching “What the bleep do we know?” > > I like what Murray Gell-Mann called it, “Quantum Flapdoodle”. Maybe? Perhaps police misconduct only exists when there is an outside observer too? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/29 "2017-08-11T15:55:52Z")
Damn, wrong thread. Past edit window. Sorry folks, nothing to see here. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/30 "2017-08-11T16:00:26Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Iirc Manson et all were picked up on vehicular theft charges. > It was a jailhouse confession to another inmate which tied them to the murders. > > Imho, “red-handed” would mean that they had red hands from the blood of the murder—e.g. with direct evidence in plain sight > > You may want to fish around for another anecdote for your case. Manson, also, didn’t actually do the killing. So, there was a legitimate issue for a trial concerning his role. (the jury got it right, in my view, but I don’t think a trial was a waste of effort.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/31 "2017-08-11T16:15:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > My first thought, too. And there was also Richard Kimble. Had he been killed, the one armed man might still be loose today. If the OP’s policy had been in place, Charles Manson would still be loose today. As I noted in my previous post, Manson was identified by other suspects who had been arrested. If the OP had his way, those suspects would have been killed at their arrests and wouldn’t have had an opportunity to later identify Manson. The police would have done Manson a pretty big favor by killing off the witnesses against him. ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/32 "2017-08-11T16:43:41Z")
Police should not kill anyone, ever. Remember the Ferguson and Baltimore riots? That is the direct result of police killing suspects. The constitution guarantees a fair trial to anyone suspected of a crime. Let’s follow the lead of countries like Iceland and New Zealand, where police don’t carry guns. The end result is much less death on both sides of the law. Having guns can even make police officer into targets. The Boston Marathon bombers murdered Officer Collier for the express purpose of stealing his gun. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/33 "2017-08-11T17:28:19Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Damn, wrong thread. Past edit window. Sorry folks, nothing to see here. Too late, we observed it, the cat’s out of the opaque box. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/34 "2017-08-11T17:38:34Z")
It seems clear to me that if we’re going to empower people to autonomously decide people are guilty of things and execute them in the heat of the moment, the only people honorable and worthy enough to hold this role is me, myself, alone. And since I am not a policeman, I don’t think policemen should be allowed to murder suspects. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/35 "2017-08-11T17:42:03Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > Police should not kill anyone, ever. > Remember the Ferguson and Baltimore riots? That is the direct result of police killing suspects. > The constitution guarantees a fair trial to anyone suspected of a crime. Let’s follow the lead of countries like Iceland and New Zealand, where police don’t carry guns. The end result is much less death on both sides of the law. > Having guns can even make police officer into targets. The Boston Marathon bombers murdered Officer Collier for the express purpose of stealing his gun. Police don’t carry guns in New Zealand [except when they do.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Police#Weapons) ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/36 "2017-08-11T19:03:24Z")
Here are the first links I have found about men who were arrested, tried and convicted, only to be found innocent years later. > **[25 years later, freed by DNA evidence: 'It's the greatest day of my life'](https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/20160824_Philly_jury_deliberating_in_retrial_of __91_rape-murder_of_Nicetown_woman__ 77.html)** > > Almost 25 years ago, Anthony Wright was taken into custody at age 20, charged with the rape and murder of his 77-year-old Nicetown neighbor. > **[Idaho man who didn't match DNA from killing is freed](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/idaho-man-who-didnt-match-dna-from-killing-is-freed/)** > > Christopher Tapp served 20 years for the 1996 rape and murder of an 18-year-old, but the DNA evidence matched someone else > **[Virginia Inmate Freed After DNA Tests Refute Bite-Mark Evidence (Published 2016)](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/09/us/virginia-inmate-freed-after-dna-tests-refute-bite-mark-evidence.html)** > > Experts said Keith Allen Harward’s release after 33 years in prison for a murder and rape he did not commit showed that bite-mark analysis was unreliable. > **[CBS Texas - Breaking Local News, First Alert Weather & I-Team Investigations](https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/)** > > Latest breaking news from CBS11 KTVT-TV | KTXA-TV. > **[Imprisoned nearly 25 years for rape, Indiana man freed after tests show DNA...](https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-iindiana-rape-conviction-dna-20170308-story.html)** > > A central Indiana man who spent nearly 25 years in prison was freed Wednesday after a judge set aside his 1992 rape conviction because DNA found was not his. [The Innocence Project has exonerated 351 people.](https://www.innocenceproject.org/dna-exonerations-in-the-united-states/) Only an idiot can think that the police _only_ arrest guilty people. Or that juries _only_ convict guilty people. ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/37 "2017-08-12T15:03:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My recollection is that the murder weapon was carried to the car by Berkowitz at the time he was arrested. The gun that was already in the car in plain sight was a rifle. Many left wingers seem to mind guns only when owned by law-abiding people. Criminals are a different story. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/38 "2017-08-12T15:44:06Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > Many left wingers seem to mind guns only when owned by law-abiding people. Criminals are a different story. So apparently the left is in favor of summarily executing anyone bearing arms, except when that person has been convicted of a crime? I have no idea what you’re trying to say here. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/39 "2017-08-12T15:54:07Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > Many left wingers seem to mind guns only when owned by law-abiding people. Criminals are a different story. That statement is, uh, something. Since this is GD and not the Pit, can you please provide a cite that left-wingers mind when guns are in the hands of law-abiding people and don’t mind when they are in the hands of criminals? Can you further explain why you’re hijacking your own thread with that sort of inflammatory statement? And, can you describe whether you’ve changed your mind at all about extra-judicial killing by the police based on the responses in this thread? What’s the point of creating a Debate thread where you don’t join the debate at all? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310/40 "2017-08-12T15:55:09Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > Many left wingers seem to mind guns only when owned by law-abiding people. Criminals are a different story. Some law-abiding people become criminals. In a fact, **all** criminals were once law-abiding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-more-murder-suspects-die-during-arrests/793310.md?page=3)