# Should my aunt have sent an e-mail on Shabbat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2002, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108 "2002-07-15T20:28:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/81 "2002-07-20T16:45:44Z")
Green Bean, hope you realize you aren’t likely to get responses from people who actually know the answer until later tonight or tomorrow… ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/82 "2002-07-20T20:16:18Z")
Of course. Should I have waited until after Shabbos to post the question? 😕 If so, why? (I figured they’d check the thread whenever they looked at the board next and answer then.) ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/83 "2002-07-20T21:41:40Z")
Sorry, Grean Bean, I was just ribbin’ ya, but hate using smilies. Sorry if that didn’t come across. Guess that’s what I get for hanging out here on Shabbat… ---
**Author:** ![akohl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@akohl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akohl)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/84 "2002-07-21T00:07:03Z")
Fun thread you all got going here. Bit of a nit pick for zev. Electricity is not fire. An electric light bulb is considered a fire, even to the point where one may reicte the blessing, “blesssed is the creator of the lights of fire” on a buring light bulb. But other uses of electricity such as fans and radios and most parts of a computer, although maybe not the screen, is not considered fire. The reason its prohibited on Shabbat would be more along the lines that Sdimbert explained above - something to do with completeing a curcuit or completeing a proccess. But Lemur866’s question, > [@](#): > > Yes, but what if you concieve a baby on Shabbat? Doesn’t that violate the “no creative activity” guideline? Well, Sdimbert, this question blew a big wide hole in your thesis. The truth is, its very difficult to conceptually define the acts which are prohibbited on Shabbat. They are defined in the talmud in terms of their resemblance to tasks that were done in the cunstruction of the tabernacle and some of the implements of worship, not conceptually in terms of creativity or permanence or anything like that. And Sdimbert, just to relate to another interesting point you made; > [@](#): > > Here’s an interesting insight: The kind of activity prohibited on Shabbos is categorized as melocho, which is usually mistranslated as “work” which sparks a lot of needless debate. A more correct translation would be “creative activity.” > > The term has the same root word as “Malach,” the hebrew word for angel. An angel is (in Jewish philosophy" an agent of God, one who does God’s bidding. > > So, the kind of activity prohibited on Shabbos is the kind of work which in which we (in a sense) send an agent out into the world to affect a change. In other words, on Shabbos, a Jew is prohibited from doing things which will then remain, independent of him. He can’t build a wall, tie a permanent know, or complete an electrical circuit. All of these examples (and coutless others) are activities which involve a kind of permanence. > > Permitted activites are focused inward; Jews use the Shabbos to rest, as God rested (on the Seventh Day), from all creative activity. I would work backwords, understanding “angel”, from “work” rather than relating our prohibited work to an angelic concept, lathough your way of looking at it was quite nice. An angel, or “mal’ach” is a being that performs specific work tasks for G-d. He’s a worker. The term mal’ach is used instead of the more common “po’el” perhaps because the angel is created to perform very specific well-defined tasks rather than to be available for a wide range of activities like human labourers. In closing, For me, the most common form of permissible Shabbat violation is reserve duty, which is considered saving a life. Unfortunately its happened so many times the instances are not particularly memorable for me any more. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/85 "2002-07-21T00:51:56Z")
Is one allowed to paint, or sew (by hand, I’m presuming!), or something-simply for recreational reasons? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/86 "2002-07-21T02:42:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*I assume that Jewish farmers and ranchers are allowed to feed and care for their animals on the sabbath. Can you, say, milk the cows if the cows would be in pain without milking? How much can actually be done? What if an animal is giviing birth, can you help? What obligations do you have towards animals under your care? \*\* Correct. One must care for the animals in your care. This includes feeding. As for milking cows: normally such an action would be forbidden. However, if the cow will be in pain, one may milk the cow to allieviate the pain. The milk, however, cannot be used. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/87 "2002-07-21T02:48:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Green Bean \* > \*\*WRT the transponder-generated BLT: > > I have a friend who is “Modern Orthodox.” The other day I asked her if she could eat those fake bacon bits. She said, “sure, there’s no bacon in 'em.” I said, “but doesn’t that violate the _spirit_ of the thing?” She gave me a blank look and said “But there’s no bacon in 'em.” > > What do you guys think? \*\* I happen to like those Bacos too… > [@](#): > > \*\* > And another question–do you allow your kids to play with toy versions of things that are forbidden on the Sabbath? If little Johnny just loves to play with his toy phone, do you let him play with it on Saturday afternoon? (I’m assuming not.) \*\* Depends. Although children are not considered responsible for the “sins” they commit, nonetheless, parents are required to make sure that the children keep _Shabbos_. A toy oven that can actually cook is clearly forbidden. Likewise, a toy that uses electricity (even if it doesn’t cook). If it simply looks like an oven, but uses no electricity, makes no noise, etc, then one can allow one’s children to use it. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Come to think of it, you know the process wherein an oven that was used to cook non-kosher food can be kosher-ized? (Sorry, don’t know the word) If you buy an EZ-Bake Oven for you kid at a garage sale, does it have to be kosherized before the kid can use it? (Okay, now I’m just being a smart-aleck. ;j ) \*\* The word you are looking for is _kashered_. Not all utensils can be _kashered_. Unfortunately, my knowledge in this area is somewhat lacking, so I will wait and allow someone else to answer the question of how to _kasher_ the oven (if possible). In any event, one should _kasher_ utensils that have been used for cooking if bought used from a non-Jew simply out of doubt. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/88 "2002-07-21T02:52:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Is one allowed to paint, or sew (by hand, I’m presuming!), or something-simply for recreational reasons? \*\* No. Writing and sewing are two of the 39 categories of prohibited labor. Painting (or making any inteligible permenant mark) would fall under the category of writing. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/89 "2002-07-21T16:30:14Z")
Can you break sabbath, etc, to prevent serious but probably non-life threatening injuries? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/90 "2002-07-21T18:30:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shade \* > \*\*Can you break sabbath, etc, to prevent serious but probably non-life threatening injuries? \*\* Sometimes yes, sometimes no, and sometimes rabbinic decrees can be violated, but not Biblical prohibitions. It depends on a number of factors, primarily just how ill the patient is. I can post more details on this when I get home. Unfortunately, I do not know these _halachos_ like the back of my hand and would need to do some research before posting general guidelines. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/91 "2002-07-21T19:27:36Z")
Perhaps you should change the name of this debate-“Ask the Orthodox Jewish Guy”? ;j ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/92 "2002-07-21T23:26:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > Ideally, one shouldn’t. The commandment of “sanctifying G-d’s name in public” definitely includes martyrdom. However, such false conversion is not considered as if one had actually worshipped idols. People who fail in this manner are still Jews in good standing. Not sure if I am disputing or clarifying. But in any event… Converting under duress is absolutely forbidden. Martyrdom under such circumstances is not “ideal” in the sense of being a great-but-not-required course of action - it is ideal in the same sense as any other religious requirement. Such a false conversion is indeed considered as if one had actually worshipped idols (assuming that one has done so as part of the false conversion - not all other religions are considerd idolatry). But it is true that it considered as though one had done so under duress - thus one is held accountable for the lack of martyrdom, but the idolatry itself is considered an involuntary act. People who fail in this manner are not “Jews in good standing”. However, if they repent of this sin, they can become Jews in good standing, as can a person who repents of any sin. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/93 "2002-07-22T00:56:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shade \* > \*\*Can you break sabbath, etc, to prevent serious but probably non-life threatening injuries? \*\* OK, here goes: There are five major categories of ill people with regard to the laws of Shabbos. They are: [list=1] [li]Person with a life-threatening injury or illness[/li][li]Person with a serious non-life-threatening injury or illness[/li][li]Person with an injury or illness that may jeopardize the future use of a limb[/li][li]A person suffering from a localized ailment which causes discomfort[/li][li]A minor ailment that causes little or no discomfort[/li][/list=1] The general laws with regard to these are as follows: **Person with a life-threatening injury or illness** One is required to violate Shabbos for such an individual. Any Biblical or Rabbinical prohibition (aside from the “Big 3”) must be violated to save this person’s life. **Person with a serious non-life-threatening injury or illness** Defined as a person who requires bed rest or one that causes weakness in the entire body. One may ask a non-Jew to perform any Shabbos-violating action for this person (something a Jew is normally forbidden to do). A Jew is also allowed to violate a Rabbinic prohibition for this person. It should, however, be done in an unusual manner (with one’s left hand, for example, if one is a righty). **Person with an injury or illness that may jeopardize the future use of a limb** Same as above. **A person suffering from a localized ailment which causes discomfort** (such as a common headache) A Jew cannot violate a Biblical or Rabbinic prohibition for this person. However, a non-Jew can be asked to do something Rabbinically prohibited (but not Biblically prohibited). **A minor ailment that causes little or no discomfort** (such as a minor sore throat) It is forbidden to violate the Shabbos for such a person. It cannot be overemphasized that these are general guidelines. In the event of an actual emergency, and you’re not sure what to do, follow the following guidelines: [ul] [li]If you think there is a reasonable chance of the patient’s life being lost, do not hesistate and do not waste time looking around for a Rabbi to ask. Simply go to the hospital, call 911 etc. (Of course, if a Rabbi is there, you can ask…) **It is better to err on the side of potentially saving a life than on the side of Shabbos observance.** [/li][li]If there is no reasonable chance of the patient losing their life, ask before you do.[/li][/ul] Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/94 "2002-07-22T00:58:54Z")
NB on my previous post and all other posts in this thread: I am not a _posek_ (decisor of Jewish law) and this is not a _p’sak_ (halachic decision). Please contact your local rabbi for an actual ruling. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/95 "2002-07-22T01:08:24Z")
**EvaLuna** –Oh! I thought you were _serious_! :o 🙂 **Zev** –Thanks for the answers! ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/96 "2002-07-22T01:11:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\*Not sure if I am disputing or clarifying. But in any event… > > Converting under duress is absolutely forbidden. Martyrdom under such circumstances is not “ideal” in the sense of being a great-but-not-required course of action - it is ideal in the same sense as any other religious requirement. > > Such a false conversion is indeed considered as if one had actually worshipped idols (assuming that one has done so as part of the false conversion - not all other religions are considerd idolatry). But it is true that it considered as though one had done so under duress - thus one is held accountable for the lack of martyrdom, but the idolatry itself is considered an involuntary act. > > People who fail in this manner are not “Jews in good standing”. However, if they repent of this sin, they can become Jews in good standing, as can a person who repents of any sin. \*\* **Izzy** , I think that Chaim was talking about a person who pretends to be of an another faith (i.e. lies to authorities about his faith, outwardly dresses as a priest or nun, etc.), based on **Tamerlane** ’s question about “dissembling about your faith.” I think that Chaim would agree with you that if an actual conversion had taken place then the person would no longer be a “Jew in good standing” and martyrdom is no longer “preferred” but required. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![MHand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@MHand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHand)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/97 "2002-07-22T07:16:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\* > > No. Writing and sewing are two of the 39 categories of prohibited labor. Painting (or making any inteligible permenant mark) would fall under the category of writing. > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* It might also fall under another of the 39 catagories of prohibited labor, dyeing. ---
**Author:** ![MHand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@MHand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHand)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/98 "2002-07-22T07:32:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Green Bean \* > \*\*WRT the transponder-generated BLT: > > …The other day I asked her if she could eat those fake bacon bits. She said, “sure, there’s no bacon in 'em.”… > > What do you guys think? > \*\* Sometimes otherwise permitted actions are forbidden because they appear wrong, and people who see them might draw the wrong conclusions. For example, some opinions would forbid a Jews to enter an unkosher McDonalds, even just to user the bathroom, because of what passerby’s might think. Meat and dairy products may not be eaten together. I’m told that when margarine first came out, Jews who served it during a meat meal, would serve it inside its package, even if the rest of the meal was on fine china, to ensure that guests knew that it was not dairy butter. Nowadays, I don’t know of anyone who is careful about this. Margine is not a new invention anymore, and is quite popular. It is reasonable to assume that if its a meat meal, its not real butter, no mater how it looks or tastes. Concerning your question of kosher fake-bacon bits, I serve them and assume every knows they are kosher. Perhaps there are some people who are careful to always serve them from the original shaker. ---
**Author:** ![Knighted\_Vorpal\_Sword](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ac91a4/32.png) [@Knighted\_Vorpal\_Sword](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knighted_Vorpal_Sword)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/99 "2002-07-22T14:32:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Green Bean \* > \*\*WRT the transponder-generated BLT: > > I have a friend who is “Modern Orthodox.” The other day I asked her if she could eat those fake bacon bits. She said, “sure, there’s no bacon in 'em.” I said, “but doesn’t that violate the _spirit_ of the thing?” She gave me a blank look and said “But there’s no bacon in 'em.” > > What do you guys think? > > And another question–do you allow your kids to play with toy versions of things that are forbidden on the Sabbath? If little Johnny just loves to play with his toy phone, do you let him play with it on Saturday afternoon? (I’m assuming not.)\*\* I **love** the fake bacon bits. You may also be interested in knowing that there is fake crab meat and fake shrimp, too. It’s all made out of kosher fish. People have told me that it tastes pretty close to the real thing, although I wouldn’t know. As far as the toy thing . . . when my kids were smaller, we steered them away from toys that they weren’t supposed to use on Shabbos. Now that they’re older, we try to steer them away from board games that are not in the spirit of Shabbos, like Monopoly (because of the buying and selling, which observant Jews don’t do on the Sabbath). Technically, AFAIK, there is nothing wrong with the game, but . . . ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/100 "2002-07-23T19:10:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\* > > OK, **sqweels**. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. > > Let’s just say that your original question was simply too ambiguous. If you have a question to ask, please restate in simpler and more obvious terms, and I will do my best to answer you. Please keep the question related to the question in the OP. > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* **Sqweels** , Are you out there? Zev Steinhardt [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108.md?page=6)