# Should my aunt have sent an e-mail on Shabbat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2002, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108 "2002-07-15T20:28:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/141 "2002-07-28T13:52:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > \*\*So if you leave a car on, can you drive it as long as you don’t press the gas pedal? \*\* No, for a number of reasons: 1. How can you drive it without pressing the gas peddle? 2. Opening and closing the car door will result in the light going on and off. 3. The Rabbis instituted rules against moving items that were prohibited for use on Shabbos. Such items are called _muktzeh_. Examples of _muktzeh_ include pencils (forbidden to write), needle and thread (fobidden to sew) and electronic items (since they cannot be used). A car falls into this category, and, as such, cannot be moved at all. There may yet be other reasons, but that’s all I could think of off the top of my head. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ad7895/32.png) [@Harmonious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/142 "2002-07-28T16:27:08Z")
I wanted to say thank you to everyone who responded - rape is a difficult topic, and I’m glad to understand the sources better. I’m not sure about the post count. My computer does not always cooperate when I come to (or post to) the SDMB. I don’t know why the computer (or site) does what it does. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/143 "2002-07-28T18:38:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*The point is that the process is happening “by iteslf.” We are not doing any action on Shabbos that causes the extra electricity to be consumed. > Zev Steinhardt \*\* Is it permissible to put something in the oven if the oven is on a timer? Is it permissible to open a refrigerator? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/144 "2002-07-28T19:36:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > 1. How can you drive it without pressing the gas peddle? By letting it idle. I have another silly question: if you’re in a rocket ship traveling near the speed of light, do you calculate the arrival of sabbath according to Earth time, or subjective time? ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/145 "2002-07-28T20:05:30Z")
One might laugh, but that isn’t a silly question at all. Something not entirely dissimilar recently came up with regards to the crew of the Space Shuttle Colombia. One of the crew is an Israeli, the first to be on a mission outside Earth’s atmosphere, and the question arose as to when he should observe the Sabbath: [http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020527-4565612.htm](http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020527-4565612.htm) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/146 "2002-07-29T00:35:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Truth Seeker \* > \*\* > > Is it permissible to put something in the oven if the oven is on a timer? Is it permissible to open a refrigerator? \*\* No, because cooking is a seperate prohibition, aside from the use of electricity/gas to maintain a fire. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/147 "2002-07-29T01:26:26Z")
Zev - Remember GE’s “Kosher” sabbath ovens? see: [http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/display/inn\_home/special01.txt](http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/display/inn_home/special01.txt) So, are they acceptable to all observant Jews, or just some? hh ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/148 "2002-07-29T01:32:26Z")
**Zev** , Does [this link](http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-cooking-ovenshabbos.htm) accurately reflect the Orthodox position? Does opening a refrigerator count as cooking? It wouldn’t seem to based on the information in the above link. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/149 "2002-07-29T01:41:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Truth Seeker \* > \*\ ***Zev** , Does [this link](http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-cooking-ovenshabbos.htm) accurately reflect the Orthodox position? > > Does opening a refrigerator count as cooking? It wouldn’t seem to based on the information in the above link. \*\* No. I think you may have mis-read something. As per the site you quoted: > [@](#): > > In order for food to be considered hot, the food must reach a temperature of yad soledes bo (120°F), hot enough to cause one to withdraw his hand due to the heat. If the food will not reach a temperature of yad soledes bo there is no concern of cooking. . Thus, if the food will never reach _yad soledes bo_, it can never be considered cooking. What did this have to do with a refrigerator door? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/150 "2002-07-29T01:46:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by happyheathen \* > \*\*Zev - > > Remember GE’s “Kosher” sabbath ovens? > > see: [http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/display/inn\_home/special01.txt](http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/display/inn_home/special01.txt) > > So, are they acceptable to all observant Jews, or just some? > > hh \*\* I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not terribly familiar with the oven in question and it’s methods, so I can’t give an authoritative answer. However, the link you provided indicates that the model was approved for use by the Star-K. The Star-K is also the link that **Truth Seeker** provided. In the Common Questions & Answers section of that page, it says: > [@](#): > > **If my oven has a timer feature, can I set it to go on on Shabbos and place the food to be heated there on Shabbos before the pre-determined time?** > No. Placing food on Shabbos in a place where it could come to be cooked, even when this only involves reheating is prohibited. > > **Can I adjust the temperature of an oven that has a Sabbath mode feature on Shabbos?** > No. The Sabbath mode is beneficial for temperature adjustment on Yom Tov only. We will discuss Yom Tov use in greater depth in future issues. On Shabbos, one may not adjust the temperature, as that causes the fire to burn or be extinguished. Nor does the Sabbath mode allow you to put food up to cook or reheat on Shabbos Yom Tov means a holiday. On Jewish holidays (other than Yom Kippur) one is allowed to cook and certain leinencies exist with regard to handling fire. As such, it seems that the oven timer is meant to be used on Yom Tov and not on Shabbos (which has much stricter rules). Perhaps someone else who is more familiar with the oven can give a better answer. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/151 "2002-07-29T01:55:51Z")
There seems to be a bit of confusion. My original question asked about a refrigerator and an oven and you responded that cooking was prohibitted so I was trying to understand how using a refrigerator (which you often do while cooking) fit into the picture. My question regarding the refrigerator had to do with something that is discussed in the link regarding ovens. When you put food in an oven, it causes the oven to turn on to heat up the food. Similarly, when you open a refrigerator door to take something out, you let out cold air which causes the refrigerator to switch on. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/152 "2002-07-29T02:05:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Truth Seeker \* > \*\*There seems to be a bit of confusion. My original question asked about a refrigerator and an oven and you responded that cooking was prohibitted so I was trying to understand how using a refrigerator (which you often do while cooking) fit into the picture. > > My question regarding the refrigerator had to do with something that is discussed in the link regarding ovens. When you put food in an oven, it causes the oven to turn on to heat up the food. Similarly, when you open a refrigerator door to take something out, you let out cold air which causes the refrigerator to switch on. \*\* Ah, OK. _Now_ I understand your question. With regard to the prohibition of cooking, there is no problem. Unless opening your refrigerator door will cause your food to heat up to 120 degrees F, the prohibition of cooking does not come into play. (However, you do have to remember to take out the light in the fridge, or else you can’t open it because it will cause the light to go on…) Your question involves the use of electricity, not the prohibition of cooking. It is true that opening a refrigerator door may cause the motor of the fridge to turn on if the temperature goes too high in the fridge. Becuase of this, some people are careful to only open thier door when the fridge motor is on. However, this stringency is not one which is accepted by everyone in the Orthodox community and there are many who will open their fridge door regardless of the current state of the motor. If the oven works the way you describe it, then there are two problems with the oven. The first is the same as the problem with the refrigerator. That’s an electrical issue. A second problem is that by putting the food in the oven, you are heating it up to the level of _yad soledes bo_. That’s a second problem which is absent in the refrigerator case. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/153 "2002-07-29T02:22:50Z")
Opening a refridgerator door causes the fridge to expend extra energy compensating for the increase in heat it causes. If you didn’t open the fridge, it wouldn’t need to work as hard. Plus, opening the door causes that little light to go on… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/154 "2002-07-29T02:26:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Vorlon Ambassador’s Aide \* > \*\*Opening a refridgerator door causes the fridge to expend extra energy compensating for the increase in heat it causes. If you didn’t open the fridge, it wouldn’t need to work as hard. > > Plus, opening the door causes that little light to go on… 😉 \*\* I addressed both points above. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/155 "2002-07-29T02:56:09Z")
I’m sorry. My computer had some kind of major error, and (I thought) failed to add the message to the thread. When I originally wrote the message, the points hadn’t been clarified yet. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/156 "2002-07-29T02:59:23Z")
**Zev** , thanks very much for the insight. While poking around, I also ran into this which provides a different perspective on [whether it is permissible to ride a train/bus.](http://www.jewish.com/askarabbi/askarabbi/askr4438.htm) It argues that maybe it _is_ permissible to ride on public transport. However, the answer is by a Conservative, rather than an Orthodox rabbi. On what points does the Conservative perspective differ on this issue? ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/157 "2002-07-29T03:11:46Z")
[Historical side note] **Tamerlane** , There is a fascinating history surrounding “crypto-Jews.” These were Jews that were subjected to forced conversion in 14th and 15th century Spain. Many of attempted to remain secretely Jewish, with varying levels of success. Even today, there are families that continue to perpetuate “secret” traditions based on dimly remembered Jewish practice. Here’s a link. [http://www.pacificnet.net/~faigin/SCJ/faq/13-05.html](http://www.pacificnet.net/~faigin/SCJ/faq/13-05.html) [/Historical side note] ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/158 "2002-07-29T08:00:24Z")
Lovely discourse all around. A friend of mine (not Jewish) parked his car on a hill on Shabbat. He got out and realized the car was rolling, and stuck his foot under a tire to block it. He reports that he then yelled for help for some time without any response. Two students at the yeshiva where I was working at the time walked by. He explained the situation and asked them sequentially to do these things, each of which they refused in turn: To unlock the car and pull the emergency brake, to replace him at the tire so he could unlock the car and pull the emergency brake; to call the police. To each they stated that his situation was not life threatening and therefore they could not help him. I do not know how long he had to wait after they left for a neighbor to help him, but I do know that he was very angry when he yelled at me about it. I asked the headmaster what actions the students could have taken, and his non-answer was that he would speak to the boys. I never found out whether he praised or castigated them. How would you understand this situation? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/159 "2002-07-29T13:26:05Z")
Shoshana, I agree that those boys were not allowed to do open the car door to pull the brake, because either of those things would have caused lights to go on. Using a phone to call the police would also have been forbidden. Putting their own feet in place to prevent the car from rolling _might_ involve “muktzah”, which several above explained as handling or moving forbidden objects, such as a car, except that they would only be keeping their feet stationary, to prevent the car from rolling. It could be that either those boys - or I - misunderstand the mechanics of the situation. But at the very least, they certainly could have walked to the next street of something to find someone else to help. Maybe they were just too shy or embarrased to try that. On the other hand, I am very reticent to ask people to help _me_; asking for help for someone _else_ is not so embarrasing. It’s also quite possible that no one else is around, even on other streets. Personally, it often happens in the winter that I see a car stuck in the snow, with a couple of people trying to push it out. I always lend a hand during the week, and I feel bad about not being able to on Shabbat. I usually walk by, but if they would actually ask me for help, I hope I’d look around for someone else instead of abandoning them. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108/160 "2002-07-29T15:05:16Z")
**Shoshana’s** story raises an interesting question - the students refused to help because the situation was not life-threatening. But at least potentially, an uncontrolled moving car on a hill can threaten life and limb: there may be people below, perhaps people who can’t be seen, or who haven’t entered the street yet. So, how direct does a threat of injury, etc., need to be before Shabbat can be broken? Sua [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-my-aunt-have-sent-an-e-mail-on-shabbat/119108.md?page=9)