# Should Non-Citzens be allows to vote? One USA state ( California ) says YES. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 23, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432 "2018-07-23T14:26:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/81 "2018-07-30T11:38:38Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > In actuality, it’s renters that pay the property tax, not owners. The tax is just one of the landlord’s cost of business which he passes on to the tenants. The landlord is just a middleman for the property tax, he initially pays it and gets reimbursed for it from tenants over the course of the year. Under the tax code, who gets to deduct property tax? Owners or renters? In actuality, it’s the owners. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/82 "2018-07-30T12:30:50Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Under the tax code, who gets to deduct property tax? Owners or renters? In actuality, it’s the owners. So the property owners pass the cost of the tax onto the renters and still claim the deduction. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/83 "2018-07-30T13:15:00Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > So the property owners pass the cost of the tax onto the renters and still claim the deduction. Spot on. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/84 "2018-07-30T13:29:34Z")
No, renters do not pay property tax. Do the customers of Taco Bell pay for the employees’ subsidized meals? Also, no. It’s a cost of doing business. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/85 "2018-07-30T13:35:11Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I don’t have a strong objection to legal permanent residents being allowed to vote at all levels. If you have some sort of argument in opposition, I’m listening. I’m a legal permanent resident. I think I should be allowed to vote in local and state elections, but I don’t think I should be able to vote in federal elections. Once you have a green card, becoming a citizen is relatively easy; the only reasons I haven’t are (1) laziness, and (2) cost - it’s $725.00 not including time and travel.\* Also, lately (3) Trump. \*It occurred to me for the first time this week that it’s still cheaper than spending $600-something to renew my green card every 10 years. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/86 "2018-07-30T13:35:43Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, renters do not pay property tax. Do the customers of Taco Bell pay for the employees’ subsidized meals? Also, no. It’s a cost of doing business. If property taxes go up, do rents go up? If Taco Bell starts providing lobster rolls and Cotes du Rhone to its employees for lunch instead of tacos with fake beef, will prices go up? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/87 "2018-07-30T15:01:33Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, renters do not pay property tax. Do the customers of Taco Bell pay for the employees’ subsidized meals? Also, no. It’s a cost of doing business. That’s crazy. Then what does the state of Minnesota give me a tax refund for property tax for? Also, subsidized meals are absolutely baked into expenses, and thus menu prices. So yes. It’s like basic business accounting is beyond some people… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/88 "2018-07-30T18:09:23Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, renters do not pay property tax. Do the customers of Taco Bell pay for the employees’ subsidized meals? Also, no. It’s a cost of doing business. Look up Triple-Net lease sometime. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/89 "2018-07-30T19:53:36Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > In actuality, it’s renters that pay the property tax, not owners. The tax is just one of the landlord’s cost of business which he passes on to the tenants. The landlord is just a middleman for the property tax, he initially pays it and gets reimbursed for it from tenants over the course of the year. Maybe. I never had my rent increased due to increased property tax ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/90 "2018-07-30T20:25:07Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Maybe. I never had my rent increased due to increased property tax How would you know? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/91 "2018-07-30T21:20:33Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > That’s crazy. Then what does the state of Minnesota give me a tax refund for property tax for? That’s interesting. Do you a link for more information? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/92 "2018-07-31T11:04:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m a legal permanent resident. I think I should be allowed to vote in local and state elections, but I don’t think I should be able to vote in federal elections. Once you have a green card, becoming a citizen is relatively easy; the only reasons I haven’t are (1) laziness, and (2) cost - it’s $725.00 not including time and travel.\* Also, lately (3) Trump. > > \*It occurred to me for the first time this week that it’s still cheaper than spending $600-something to renew my green card every 10 years. :smack: I’m fine in theory with states allowing non citizens to vote for state and local offices. But if they do that, they have to have safeguards in place to keep them from voting in federal elections and I don’t sense much motivation on Democrats’ part to insure that. Their “plan” is to just assume it won’t happen. Except people can’t be expected to know what they can vote for and what they can’t. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/93 "2018-07-31T11:33:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m fine in theory with states allowing non citizens to vote for state and local offices. But if they do that, they have to have safeguards in place to keep them from voting in federal elections and I don’t sense much motivation on Democrats’ part to insure that. Their “plan” is to just assume it won’t happen. Except people can’t be expected to know what they can vote for and what they can’t. And yet other countries manage just fine with the concept. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/94 "2018-07-31T12:51:43Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > The question is simple. Should non-citizens be allowed to vote in USA elections? > > In this case for school boards, but its a slippery slope. > > I say no, only USA citizens should be allowed to vote in local, state or federal elections. So my parents were permanent residents (green card holders) when I was in school. They owned a home and paid their real estate taxes. They couldn’t vote for president of governor but they could vote for the school board (in NYC). This was decades ago. So why should someone with children in public schools who pay real estate taxes to fund those schools be unable to have a say in how those schools are run? In fact I don’t think there was even a citizenship requirement to run for the school board. BTW: What happened to the OP? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/95 "2018-07-31T13:09:11Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > And yet other countries manage just fine with the concept. There’s also how in many cases in the US the local (municipal, county) elections are held in off-years or off-dates where there’s no federal election to cross-contaminate (e.g. NYC). Or, you can have a ballot paper of local elections and a ballot paper of statewide/federal and just not hand over the latter to the noncitizen voter (this of course applies to Scantron ballots, not to the straight screen-only e-voting). It’s true that it would be more challenging where and when where the local elections and referenda are all simultaneous with the Congressional/Presidential one. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/96 "2018-07-31T13:12:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **adaher** : > > I’m fine in theory with states allowing non citizens to vote for state and local offices. But if they do that, they have to have safeguards in place to keep them from voting in federal elections and I don’t sense much motivation on Democrats’ part to insure that. Their “plan” is to just assume it won’t happen. Except people can’t be expected to know what they can vote for and what they can’t. That would be extremely easy in the US, given that we don’t have any federal elections. There are elections for federal positions, but it’s completely up to the states to decide who gets to vote in those, just like all other elections. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/97 "2018-07-31T17:57:53Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > And yet other countries manage just fine with the concept. Other countries prioritize election integrity. They don’t just assume it’s not a problem. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/98 "2018-07-31T17:59:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That would be extremely easy in the US, given that we don’t have any federal elections. There are elections for federal positions, but it’s completely up to the states to decide who gets to vote in those, just like all other elections. I’m not sure it’s legal for non-citizens to vote for federal offices, but I can’t prove it’s not, so you could be right. If so, the Electoral College is a MUST. California can’t be allowed to stuff the ballot box by basically making everyone in the state for any length of time over the age of 3 vote. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/99 "2018-07-31T19:00:08Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Wouldn’t there be extra taxpayer expense to maintain and staff two sets of machines? There are, I think, very few mechanical machines anymore. Many machines are simply scanners that scan your paper ballot. Some are touch screen like ATMs. I’m not proposing more machines. The machines have to be reprogrammed every election, even the mechanical ones if you count setting them up as programming. You only need to program them a bit differently. It might take a few more workers to physically stand there and direct people, but not even that for the scanner type machines. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432/100 "2018-07-31T20:25:33Z")
That sounds to me like any proposal to eliminate the electoral college must also institute federal voting standards. I’d be fine with that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-citzens-be-allows-to-vote-one-usa-state-california-says-yes/818432.md?page=6)