# Should non-vaccinating parents be held liable for disease transmitted by their child? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297 "2015-01-30T01:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/1 "2015-01-30T01:57:00Z")
> **[Free to choose but liable for the consequences: should non-vaccinators be...](https://www.academia.edu/2344148/Free_to_choose_but_liable_for_the_consequences_should_non-vaccinators_be_penalized_for_the_harm_they_do)** > > Free to choose but liable for the consequences: should non-vaccinators be penalized for the harm they do > [@](#): > > Consider this hypothetical scenario involving a choice not to vaccinate a child. Ms. S has a niece who is autistic. The girl’s parents are suspicious that there is some relationship between her autism and her Measles Mumps and Rubella (MMR) vaccination. They have shared their concerns with Ms. S. She then declines to have her own daughter, Jinny S., vaccinated with the MMR vaccine. To bypass the state’s mandatory vaccination requirement, Ms. S claims a state-legislated “philosophical exemption,” whereby she simply attests to the fact that she is opposed to vaccinating her daughter due to a “conscientiously held belief.” At the age of four, Jinny goes on a trip by airplane to Germany with her mother. After returning to the United States, she attends daycare despite having some mild cold symptoms. Subsequently, she develops a classic measles rash, at which point her mother brings her to a pediatrician and keeps her home from daycare. About one week later, a one-year-old daycare class-mate of Jinny’s — Michael P. — develops a severe illness. The little boy is too young to receive the MMR vaccine, although his parents intend to have him vaccinated when appropriate. A pediatrician determines that Michael also has measles. Unfortunately, after being hospitalized, the child dies. Michael’s parents have heard that Jinny previously had the measles and know, from a prior conversation with Ms. S on the playground, that she is strongly against vaccinations. Distraught by Michael’s sudden death and believing that Ms. S, by choosing to not vaccinate her child, is responsible for his death, Michael’s parents ask their local district attorney to file criminal charges. They also consult with an attorney, suspecting that even if a criminal lawsuit is unsuccessful, they might be able to recover damages from Ms. S in civil court. Could criminal charges be successful? Should they be? What about a civil case? The article points out that the scientific capability exists to show that one person transmitted the disease to another with a high degree of confidence but not certainty. I think we may see one or more civil, if not criminal, cases at some point; perhaps even from the recent Disneyland episode. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/2 "2015-01-30T03:34:26Z")
[Mom: Family that refused vaccination put my baby in quarantine](http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/28/health/measles-antivaxxers/index.html) I don’t think they should be criminally liable, but I certainly wouldn’t object to such people being open to civil lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/3 "2015-01-30T03:50:17Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [Mom: Family that refused vaccination put my baby in quarantine](http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/28/health/measles-antivaxxers/index.html) > > I don’t think they should be criminally liable, but I certainly wouldn’t object to such people being open to civil lawsuits. That article says that it cost them money, and they suffered emotional turmoil from concern over their child’s health. Maybe they have a case. What’s interesting about this case is that there’s no need to show that transmission occurred. The un-vaccinated child was unquestionably the direct cause of their problems. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/4 "2015-01-30T04:13:42Z")
The way I see it, there’s no downside to being an anti-vaxer. (Except for your kid possibly dying, and infecting others; but you know what I mean.) Some or most (?) schools require that children be vaccinated. I’d like to see Disneyland and other attractions to deny entry to unvaccinated children who are old enough to be vaccinated. Will they lose business? Yes. Will it be burdensome for parents to carry a vaccination card for each of their children? Yes. OTOH I can imagine lawsuits against amusement parks for creating an environment where dangerous diseases can spread. It might be worth it to them. ‘Oh, but my precious little snowflake _must_ go to Disneyland! It’s _unfair!_’ No, it’s unfair of anti-vax parents to expose others to diseases because of their wilful ignorance and negligence. Their children are most welcome in the parks… as soon as they’ve received their shots. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/5 "2015-01-30T04:24:35Z")
Where it would start to get ugly is when people claim to have a sincere religious objection. I can imagine someone arguing that being subject to criminal or even civil liabilities for not vaccinating is an infringement on their first amendment right to freedom of religion. Those first amendment protections have never been an absolute no-holds-barred get out of jail free card, but with the current supreme court, you never know how it may go down. And you just know that there’s some organization that would bankroll some parents’ fight all the way to the SCOTUS. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/6 "2015-01-30T04:52:25Z")
News out of Los Angeles (KNX news radio) that a pediatrician has refused to accept new patients if they have not been vaccinated. He doesn’t want to risk infections to his other patients. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/7 "2015-01-30T07:11:08Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Where it would start to get ugly is when people claim to have a sincere religious objection. I can see two other points of ugliness. There are kids that don’t get vaccinated against certain disease because it’s medically contraindicated. There will be some parents that do get their child vaccinated but are just generally opposed to showing medical records to businesses. I can almost see the media stories about little Billy with a terminal illness that suppresses immune function unable to go see Mickey. The doctor doing it probably takes out the second issue (you share medical records with the doctor) I’d bet he’s understanding of the contraindications for vaccine. The ticket drone at Disney… not so much. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/8 "2015-01-30T07:31:17Z")
I don’t think there’s any contradiction between a right not to vaccinate a child for religious reasons, and an obligation to keep your unvaccinated child the hell away from other children during an outbreak or when they display potential measles/mumps/rubella symptoms. I see no reason why a parent that negligently ignores this obligation should not be civilly liable in the ordinary way. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/9 "2015-01-30T10:06:21Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > I can see two other points of ugliness. There are kids that don’t get vaccinated against certain disease because it’s medically contraindicated. There will be some parents that do get their child vaccinated but are just generally opposed to showing medical records to businesses. I can almost see the media stories about little Billy with a terminal illness that suppresses immune function unable to go see Mickey. > > The doctor doing it probably takes out the second issue (you share medical records with the doctor) I’d bet he’s understanding of the contraindications for vaccine. The ticket drone at Disney… not so much. That’d be easy - get a letter from the doctor stating why your child can’t be vaccinated. Or if there really were a “vaccination card” have a space for “cannot be vaccinated” and have the doctor sign that. I don’t think anyone’s up in arms about kids that can’t be vaccinated not having vaccinations. They’re usually brought up as reasons for vaccination, after all, because they’re the ones (along with babies too young to be vaccinated) who are put at risk by the intentionally unvaccinated. The religious civil liberties people probably woud scupper the plans though, agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/10 "2015-01-30T11:20:10Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Where it would start to get ugly is when people claim to have a sincere religious objection. I can imagine someone arguing that being subject to criminal or even civil liabilities for not vaccinating is an infringement on their first amendment right to freedom of religion. If your religion prohibits vaccination then little Sally and Timmy don’t get to go to Disneyland. You don’t have a “right” to visit an amusement park. Your right to religion does not extend to the “right” to endanger others. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/11 "2015-01-30T12:00:15Z")
Question. Why is it not already a federal mandate that unvaccinated children without a legitimate medical exception are barred from public schools? Seriously, why? And the idea of civil suits from this is a really good one. If parents fail to take necessary precautions, particularly if they do so intentionally and wilfully, an their children cause damages to others, then they should absolutely see punishment for that. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/12 "2015-01-30T12:58:26Z")
It does not make sense to me to mandate vaccinations, nor to hold parents accountable for selfish beliefs. There is a slope there that is slippery. If you want to protect your children, vaccinate them. At some point the anti-vaxxers will figure it out. I do support clinicians refusing to see those who have refused vaccinations (personally or by parental proxy). And I support third party payers being permitted to refuse medical bills for illnesses against which vaccination was available but refused. Ultimately the decision not to vaccinate is very selfish. You need everyone else to take what minimal risk there is so that the illness does not exist, and then you get protection risk-free. But I am not in favor of governmental nannying for it. Let a few kids die or become post-encephalitic veggies, and I think the anti-vaxxers will probably come around. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/13 "2015-01-30T13:06:20Z")
What we may wind up seeing is a lawsuit against pediatricians who foster antivax attitudes, when one of their unvaccinated patients winds up infecting a young child who experiences serious complications or dies. Pediatricians who encourage vaccine avoidance and make unsupported claims (as one recently did, arguing that the current measles outbreak in California doesn’t pose any risk to a healthy child), may be taking a big risk themselves. > **[False balance about vaccines rises from the grave...again | ScienceBlogs](https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/29/false-balance-about-vaccines)** ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/14 "2015-01-30T13:33:39Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > … > If you want to protect your children, vaccinate them. > … But it’s not that simple. Children can’t be vaccinated before a certain age and some children can never be vaccinated. Which is why you need herd immunity. The relatively small number that can’t be vaccinated don’t prevent herd immunity, but if enough people without legitimate reason refuse to vaccinate then the percentage of un-vaccinated becomes too high and you lose herd immunity. At that point those who legitimately can’t be vaccinated are put at risk. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/15 "2015-01-30T13:59:50Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Question. > > Why is it not already a federal mandate that unvaccinated children without a legitimate medical exception are barred from public schools? Seriously, why? It doesn’t seem to be in the direct purview of powers granted to the Federal Government. They could play the “do this or no Federal Funding” game like with some areas but it’s a weak lever in education. The overwhelming majority of public school funding comes from the state/local level. A bill mandating vaccinations or they withhold Head Start and school lunch program funding might be a dangerous game of political chicken that legislators don’t want to play. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/16 "2015-01-30T14:18:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > News out of Los Angeles (KNX news radio) that a pediatrician has refused to accept new patients if they have not been vaccinated. He doesn’t want to risk infections to his other patients. It’s not uncommon. My boss was a pediatrician, and fired parents from his practice if they refused to vaccinate their children. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/17 "2015-01-30T14:59:20Z")
I only have a minute… > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > It does not make sense to me to mandate vaccinations, nor to hold parents accountable for selfish beliefs. There is a slope there that is slippery. > > If you want to protect your children, vaccinate them. At some point the anti-vaxxers will figure it out. I disagree. Mandated vaccinations make sense from a public safety perspective. Society benefits from the reduced risk of a serious, sometimes deadly, disease. See: Polio, smallpox. Parents _should_ be accountable. If they do not vaccinate their little plague-carriers, and people are infected, then they are responsible for causing the illness, or even death, of another person or persons. Not all children _can_ be vaccinated. In the story I linked, the child was too young to receive a vaccination. The _only_ protection such a child would have against something like measles is to not be exposed. Since it is unreasonable to isolate a child from other children for its entire first year (at least), and it is not unreasonable for parents to have their children who are of age vaccinated not only to protect their own children, but society at large. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/18 "2015-01-30T15:46:27Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > That article says that it cost them money, and they suffered emotional turmoil from concern over their child’s health. Maybe they have a case. What’s interesting about this case is that there’s no need to show that transmission occurred. The un-vaccinated child was unquestionably the direct cause of their problems. The article doesn’t say the kid with measles was unvaccinated. The MMR vaccine is not 100% effective, so it’s possible that the sick kid was vaccinated and contracted the disease anyway due to exposure to one of the Disneyland carriers. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/19 "2015-01-30T16:16:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The article doesn’t say the kid with measles was unvaccinated. The MMR vaccine is not 100% effective, so it’s possible that the sick kid was vaccinated and contracted the disease anyway due to exposure to one of the Disneyland carriers. It says quite clearly that the child was un-vaccinated. > [@](#): > > Then the Simons learned from a doctor that the child in the doctor’s office had contracted measles because his parents had refused vaccination. I suppose that you could interpret that as saying that his parents refused vaccination for themselves (but did have their child vaccinated) but in context that seems like a very unlikely interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297/20 "2015-01-30T16:24:37Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > It does not make sense to me to mandate vaccinations, nor to hold parents accountable for selfish beliefs. There is a slope there that is slippery. > > If you want to protect your children, vaccinate them. At some point the anti-vaxxers will figure it out. [An explanation of how Herd Immunity works.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-non-vaccinating-parents-be-held-liable-for-disease-transmitted-by-their-child/711297.md?page=2)