# Should nursing homes honor patients' racist requests? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586 "2010-08-26T20:56:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/21 "2010-08-27T03:56:48Z")
> [@godix](#): > > So the question boils down to what causes more harm, forcing something on an incapacitated person that they don’t want and do not need or a nurse enduring the hardship of not assisting one patient with no effect on her career? The latter. A bigot is not really harmed by being made to endure something that they, solely because of their prejudices, find to be uncomfortable. And we are not, their dotage notwithstanding, bound to indulge their detestable preferences. If you\* want to be able to enforce your racist whims, then you better not get enfeebled. - the impersonal “you” ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/22 "2010-08-27T04:23:21Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > The latter. A bigot is not really harmed by being made to endure something that they, solely because of their prejudices, find to be uncomfortable. And we are not, their dotage notwithstanding, bound to indulge their detestable preferences. > > If you\* want to be able to enforce your racist whims, then you better not get enfeebled. > > - the impersonal “you” The entire point of a nursing home is to care for the well being of the incapacitated, including their mental well being. I’m not understanding how forcing them to deal with someone on a regular basis they don’t want to facilitates their mental well being. Consider we are talking people with dementia or other forms of mental incapacity. They aren’t able to understand the reasons this would be forced on them. All they know is they are being forced against their will to deal with people against their clear preference. So it seems to me that forcing this nurse on the patient would do exactly the opposite of what the entire point of a nursing home is. Keep in mind, the goal isn’t to reform racists. The court judged this was discrimination that harmed the nurse. As long the nurse did not suffer professionally due to this situation, the harm done to her is less than the harm to the patient if she’s forced on them. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/23 "2010-08-27T04:26:31Z")
A nursing home patient who is competent to make his own decisions is free to decline whatever aspects of care he wants to decline. But I don’t think the NH should be obligated to provide an alternative just because the patient doesn’t like the caregiver, for whatever reason. It’s a stickier wicket if someone else is making the patient’s medical decisions, but you generally have to treat those decisions as if they were coming from the patient. So if a son says his dad with advanced Alzheimer’s declines any care that would be provided by minority staff, that’s how it is–but it doesn’t mean the care is provided by someone else, it means the patient goes without. Yeah, that means patients might go without necessary medical treatment or even basic hygiene, but freedom to make your own decisions means freedom to make shitty decisions. In reality, most nursing homes would do what they could to accommodate such a patient. They wouldn’t let him starve just because the dietary aide assigned to his hallway is black. Just because you’re doing everything right in the strictest medicolegal sense doesn’t mean there won’t be a river of shit from the patient’s family and the state if something goes wrong. A big problem with requiring a NH to accommodate such requests is that they can’t discriminate when they’re hiring. They could end up in a position where they would have to take a white applicant over a more qualified black applicant just to make sure they had enough white staff to accommodate the request, and I don’t believe that would end well. I also think it’s time to stop forgiving racism just because the racist in question is old. Someone who is 90 years old has lived more than half his life since the “I Have a Dream” speech–he’s had plenty of time to get the hell over it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/24 "2010-08-27T04:28:46Z")
Honor her wishes. Leave her on the floor. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/25 "2010-08-27T04:32:17Z")
> [@godix](#): > > The entire point of a nursing home is to care for the well being of the incapacitated, including their mental well being. I’m not understanding how forcing them to deal with someone on a regular basis they don’t want to facilitates their mental well being. Consider we are talking people with dementia or other forms of mental incapacity. They aren’t able to understand the reasons this would be forced on them. All they know is they are being forced against their will to deal with people against their clear preference. So it seems to me that forcing this nurse on the patient would do exactly the opposite of what the entire point of a nursing home is. > > Keep in mind, the goal isn’t to reform racists. The court judged this was discrimination that harmed the nurse. As long the nurse did not suffer professionally due to this situation, the harm done to her is less than the harm to the patient if she’s forced on them. Read for comprehension please. I’ve already explained that I don’t consider this so-called harm of the outrage of having to deal with black people to be any kind of harm at all. Frustrated racism is not an “injury” for which you can get redress. So the whole predicate of your argument, to wit: “the harm done to her is less than the harm to the patient if she’s forced on them,” is completely undermined. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/26 "2010-08-27T04:52:52Z")
[QUOTE=DoctorJ] A big problem with requiring a NH to accommodate such requests is that they can’t discriminate when they’re hiring. They could end up in a position where they would have to take a white applicant over a more qualified black applicant just to make sure they had enough white staff to accommodate the request, and I don’t believe that would end well. [/QUOTE] While I’d agree that is a possibility that should be guarded against, the case in question was over _ONE_ patient in the entire nursing home. Hardly enough to be even a minor factor in hiring. Plus the case was about if this is discrimination against a nurse already hired, not if this prompted discriminatory hiring practices. > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Read for comprehension please. I’ve already explained that I don’t consider this so-called harm of the outrage of having to deal with black people to be any kind of harm at all. Frustrated racism is not an “injury” for which you can get redress. So the whole predicate of your argument, to wit: “the harm done to her is less than the harm to the patient if she’s forced on them,” is completely undermined. It isn’t possible this put stress on the patient? This couldn’t cause a patient to get argumentative, angry, and contrary which in turn affects their care and health? Making someone have regular contact with a person they don’t want to can’t impact their quality of life? Forcibly removing a persons freedom of association just because you disagree with their views isn’t in and of itself harmful? ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/27 "2010-08-27T09:37:12Z")
> [@godix](#): > > While I’d agree that is a possibility that should be guarded against, the case in question was over _ONE_ patient in the entire nursing home. Hardly enough to be even a minor factor in hiring. Plus the case was about if this is discrimination against a nurse already hired, not if this prompted discriminatory hiring practices. Yes, but the question in the OP was about whether nursing homes _in general_ should honor the requests of such patients, and it seems to me that this could very well lead to discrimination in hiring practices. If a home was required by law to abide by racist patient requests, I imagine you’d get a lot more patients going from grumbling about being treated by a particular race to absolute refusal. And in that scenario, I’m not sure how a nursing home could avoid a need to track the ratio of acceptable-race nurses to patients just to keep their business running as smoothly as possible. It seems to me that the greater harm lies with the nurses who would be discriminated against. While it might be fun for me to imagine some racist idiot lying on the ground suffering because he or she wouldn’t accept care from a particular nurse, I’d guess that as that nurse, where your career is dedicated to helping people in need, that could go beyond aggravating and into traumatic if you were rendered helpless by the law to provide care – or even save someone’s life – solely on the basis of race. That possibility, to me, outweighs any need to protect a mentally ill individual who could become upset at having to deal with a race he or she doesn’t like. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/28 "2010-08-27T11:59:18Z")
> [@godix](#): > > You can refuse to be serviced by a non-white clerk at the DMV. It may mean you’ll have to go at certain times when whitey is working or go through the line again if luck of the draw gives you a non-white person. However, you are perfectly able to not have a non-white assist you. In fact, if you choose, you can just not deal with the DMV at all. > > Now contrast that to the nursing home. The patient has little control over being there, often it wasn’t their decision nor was the choice of nursing home in their control. The patient has little if any control over the employees. They have to interact with the employees a _LOT_ more than you have to interact with the DMV. They don’t have the option of leaving and going somewhere else. So should grandma have to tough it out and be forced to live her final days surrounded by people who make her miserable when she had no choice in the matter? I understand the distinction, however it isn’t quite registering. If I am a racist and don’t want to go to any business, public or private, where blacks might be assisting me, then I have no choice in the matter either. No business is allowed to be a “white employee only” business, and any business which would honor my “white only” request would surely run afoul of the law. I understand that some of these people are in their last days and are going senile, but this is not part of their senility. For example, if a patient is crazy and thinks that people with blue eyes are aliens from the planet Vulcan, then I can understand sending in a non blue-eyed nurse. But this racism is an affirmative feeling of hatred that they have had their whole lives, not some delusion that came into play in the last few years. I guess I’m not seeing why we should accommodate them when in absolutely no other arena of life do we not only NOT accommodate racist beliefs, but it would be specifically illegal for anyone to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/29 "2010-08-27T12:14:41Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But this racism is an affirmative feeling of hatred that they have had their whole lives, not some delusion that came into play in the last few years. Well, we don’t really know that. I’d argue a case-by-case policy is better than some blanket rule. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/30 "2010-08-27T12:31:32Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I don’t understand this at all? If we accommodate patients for this, then why not allow me to specify that I only want a white clerk to wait on me at the DMV? The person at the DMV doesn’t touch you. > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Read for comprehension please. I’ve already explained that I don’t consider this so-called harm of the outrage of having to deal with black people to be any kind of harm at all. Frustrated racism is not an “injury” for which you can get redress. So the whole predicate of your argument, to wit: “the harm done to her is less than the harm to the patient if she’s forced on them,” is completely undermined. It isn’t ‘frustrated racism’. Imagine an incontinent patient who has to wear a nappy and have it changed by a third party, a third party who may well have to clean around their privates. Do you not see how someone who is ninety, having been brought up to dislike/mistrust/hate black people, could have strong feelings of revulsion or disgust at being touched on their privates by black hands, which could cause intense stress? Anecdote: My grandmother was a lovely woman, and an utter racist. My mum tried to get her a cleaner, and got her a Philipeno woman. My Granny spent almost the entire time the woman was in the house with a death-grip on her chair, sitting bolt upright and trembling. She. was. terrified. For over an hour my Granny experienced more stress then she had in the previous year. She ended up following the woman from room-to-room to keep an eye on her, and was almost in tears by the end. We never put her through that again, we cleaned her house until her Irish housekeeper whom she had known since childhood returned from the Canaries. Side-note: When she died, her doctor was black. We had a tearful laugh around her death bed about how she would react if she were conscious. (He was respectable and a doctor, so she probably would have made friends with him once she got over the shock :D) Tl;dr: Why would you torture, stress and terrify old people because they won’t conform with your view of the world? They don’t have long left, let them die in peace. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/31 "2010-08-27T13:10:39Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Tl;dr: Why would you torture, stress and terrify old people because they won’t conform with your view of the world? Because indulging them is against the anti-discrimination laws, and these laws trump everything else. > [@Laudenum](#): > > They don’t have long left, let them die in peace. If you feel that bad, then perhaps you should step in and pay for their personal, private care. Else, just chalk this up to just another ‘sad modern-day tragedy’ caused by past racial norms. As **Kimmy\_Gibbler** wrote > [@](#): > > Eh, well… life isn’t all skittles and beer. Even when you’re old. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/32 "2010-08-27T13:34:31Z")
Actually, it affects more than the one nurse assigned her care, and it’s not just her \*feelings \*that may be hurt, it’s other patients’ care. Accommodating one patient’s whims (whether they be for race or gender) affects everyone on the unit, as schedules have to be written to accommodate the patient. Sick calls are a nightmare…if your only right-color nurse on shift gets sick and can’t work her shift, she has a far smaller pool of co-workers to call to get coverage. Vacations, likewise - must the right color nurse plan her vacation time around when another right-colored nurse is available? What about temporary shortages - must the Agency nurses be screened for race? How do you deal with understaffing - should Nancy have to care for 12 patients today because she’s the only white nurse on shift? Overloading one nurse means all her patients don’t get the care and attention they need. Housekeeping, respiratory, patient transport, LPN/CNA/PCTs, clergy…even in a nursing home vs a hospital, there are a lot of people providing care, any of whom may be called to lay hands on the patient in the normal course of the day, not to mention an emergency. Are you going to make sure the entire Code Team is the right color in case of respiratory arrest? What if the right color for Room 301 is a different right color than that of Room 303? Do you double or triple staff every position? Frankly, the nightmare scheduling, financial and legal scenarios presented by \*officially \*accommodating racist patients are probably the biggest reason why nursing homes and hospitals have quietly and unofficially attempted to accommodate them in the past. It’s far easier to informally say, “OK, Nancy, you’ve got Mrs. Jones again today,” than it is to formally ensure that a patient’s racial preference will be met at all time. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/33 "2010-08-27T13:45:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > > > No. It’s the second of the three options you present: the request will not be honored. Hardly what I’d call the end of the world. > > \ > And as for potentially-suing relatives, what happens when they side with their parent who was touched against their will by a black person? It’s a no-win all around. What would be the families grounds for recourse here? Sure, they can take the patient out of the facility, they can bitch and moan, but can they really sue because a person of the wrong race provided the contracted services that the person is there and paying for? In the other case of leaving the person on the floor while you look for an aide of the right color, there is a case for neglect. In this case, where can you sue for the facility actually providing the services you are paying for? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/34 "2010-08-27T14:01:28Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > What would be the families grounds for recourse here? Sure, they can take the patient out of the facility, they can bitch and moan, but can they really sue because a person of the wrong race provided the contracted services that the person is there and paying for? > > In the other case of leaving the person on the floor while you look for an aide of the right color, there is a case for neglect. In this case, where can you sue for the facility actually providing the services you are paying for? Any patient can press assault and battery charges against any healthcare worker for touching them without their consent. This includes your nurse, unlicensed resistive personnel (nursing assistants) your doctor or the guy wheeling you down to x-ray. Ironically, if you as a layperson were to walk down the hall, you could pick her up and be protected under the Good Samaritan Act. As an employee, I wouldn’t be. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/35 "2010-08-27T14:09:48Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > > [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > > > What would be the families grounds for recourse here? Sure, they can take the patient out of the facility, they can bitch and moan, but can they really sue because a person of the wrong race provided the contracted services that the person is there and paying for? > > > > In the other case of leaving the person on the floor while you look for an aide of the right color, there is a case for neglect. In this case, where can you sue for the facility actually providing the services you are paying for? > > Any patient can press assault and battery charges against any healthcare worker for touching them without their consent. This includes your nurse, unlicensed resistive personnel (nursing assistants) your doctor or the guy wheeling you down to x-ray. Offer not valid in all states. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/36 "2010-08-27T14:37:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Offer not valid in all states. Which ones? (Need answer fast - RN exam in 9 months! :D) ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/37 "2010-08-27T14:58:07Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > My knee-jerk reaction is that this isn’t discrimination at all. The government, landlords, and some businesses aren’t allowed to discriminate. Customers can. (Note to self: leave instructions to only be touched by female nurses under 30.) In this case, the nurse did not lose her job, **did not have any sort of effect on her job,** nor was her earning ability harmed in any way. I’m rather surprised the court ruled in her favor. The hospital would get in trouble if it changed hiring practices to reflect patient preferences. Her employer didn’t allow her to care for certain patients because she was black. I’d say it had a significant effect on her job. > [@Superhal](#): > > But, the court _did_ rule in her favor. Therefore, it is by definition discrimination. I wonder if they will force people to eat at restaurants where they don’t like the food. Personally, I don’t like Mandarin-style Chinese food, so I avoid those restaurants. Am I discriminating? A better analogy would be if you ate at a Mandarin-style restaurant but refused to be served by non-Chinese waiters, and the restaurant complied by barring non-Chinese waiters from serving you. Then the restaurant would be discriminating against their non-Chinese employees. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/38 "2010-08-27T15:03:56Z")
“Dagnabbit! I don’t want her givin’ me no sponge bath! I told you, her titties is too small!” ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/39 "2010-08-27T15:15:42Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Anecdote: > My grandmother was a lovely woman, and an utter racist. My mum tried to get her a cleaner, and got her a Philipeno woman. > My Granny spent almost the entire time the woman was in the house with a death-grip on her chair, sitting bolt upright and trembling. > > She. was. terrified. > > For over an hour my Granny experienced more stress then she had in the previous year. She ended up following the woman from room-to-room to keep an eye on her, and was almost in tears by the end. Sorry, but any sympathy I can muster for this story goes toward the housekeeper who was just trying to do her job. Your “lovely” grandmother had her entire long life to get over her irrational bigotry, and if she squandered the opportunity then she deserved whatever “terror” she experienced being in the presence of scary darkies. Same with the nursing home patients. Either come to terms with your racism or make sure you sock away enough money in your lifetime to hire lily-white servants to coddle you to your grave. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586/40 "2010-08-27T15:24:32Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Tl;dr: Why would you torture, stress and terrify old people because they won’t conform with your view of the world? > They don’t have long left, let them die in peace. Because it’s not torture. And that’s the thing about being old and enfeebled—you have to rely on other people helping you get by, so you better give up your petty prejudices, or your last days might be a bit unpleasant. Sorry Granny, but that’s life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-nursing-homes-honor-patients-racist-requests/551586.md?page=3)