# Should Obama be visiting Saudi Arabia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782 "2014-03-28T19:45:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/21 "2014-03-29T00:36:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, I’ve heard that in Europe, you’re not considered gay unless **you** take it up the ass; playing the penetrator-role with another male does not damage your straightcred. Maybe it’s the same in Arab countries. But I do wonder what the Koran has to say about it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/22 "2014-03-29T01:16:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But I do wonder what the Koran has to say about it. Eh. You can make the Koran say anything you need to suit your purpose. Kinda like another holy book that I can’t quite remember the name of right now. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/23 "2014-03-29T02:03:29Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Sure, Obama should be visiting Saudi Arabia, as long as good relations with Saudi Arabia serve the U.S.'s economic, military and political interests. I admit looking forward to a time when this is not the case, though. I don’t feel qualified to comment on which is the lesser evil, but the crap going on in Crimea has made me think more about the importance of maintaining influence around the world. Unfortunately, there are too many countries with crappy attitudes towards human rights to ignore them all when countries like Russia have no qualms about which allies they make and how they use the benefits their friends bring. Fuck Russia for making me sound like Thatcher. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/24 "2014-03-29T02:03:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. You can make the Koran say anything you need to suit your purpose. Kinda like another holy book that I can’t quite remember the name of right now. Probably [this one](http://ebookee.org/JR-Dobbs-The-Book-Of-The-SubGenius_562756.html). ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/25 "2014-03-29T04:44:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. You can make the Koran say anything you need to suit your purpose. Kinda like another holy book that I can’t quite remember the name of right now. Dianetics? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/26 "2014-03-29T12:49:11Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Dianetics? - Atlas Shrugged.\* 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/27 "2014-03-29T19:03:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Between what two activities? Sigh. There is a huge difference between being gay and having sex with other men. Most members of La Eme(AKA The Mexican Mafia) arguably the most dangerous prison gang in the US have had sex with other men but that doesn’t mean they’re gay. In fact one of their oaths they swear is “don’t be a maricon”. They just adopt the idea that tucking another man, so long as you’re the top, doesn’t count. That said amongst them, as anyone familiar with the controversy over America Me can testify to, being portrayed as a “punk” “bitch” or “bottom” is a huge insult. Many though not all Middle Eastern Muslims grow up in environments where I married women don’t “put out” because there are heavy taboos against it with extreme sanctions and it’s common for marriages to not take place until the late 20s, so men, being horny, seek release elsewhere. Hence, many develops different ideas about what does and doesn’t constitute “gay” behavior. That’s why you can have stupid things like the Turkish army banning “homosexuals” but to avoid getting drafted on that basis you’d have to provide video evidence of yourself being the bottom to another man. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/28 "2014-03-29T20:03:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t object to it any more than I object to Obama visiting the UK (where there is a government-promoted religion, Christian priests are automatically assigned offices in government, and there are standing though rarely enforced laws against blasphemy), or visiting Japan (where they still execute people by hanging, almost 99% of trials end in a conviction, and trial by jury is primitive at best), or having a meeting with Pope Francis (insert complaints about abortion/homosexuality/married or female priests/child abuse etc.) There are lots of countries that do things we don’t like, and if we snubbed them all we’d be a pretty lonely superpower. It’s probably true that with a sufficiently broad view of human rights, every country violates some human right in one way or another. But that’s doesn’t excuse Saudi Arabia. There are degrees of human rights violations. Saudi Arabia’s are severe: whether it’s persecuting non-Muslims, using cruel and bizarre forms of torture, or notoriously regressive laws regarding women and homosexuality, Saudi Arabia is one of the worst human rights abusers on the planet. The United States should not be allied with them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/29 "2014-03-29T20:24:51Z")
Well, should Obama be the one to decide whether, how and when he visits any other country? Shouldn’t he have to abide by the decision of any drunken and/or ignorant message board poster that he has to stay in the United States? Shouldn’t he have to crawl on his hands and knees before his greatest detractors to get permission to visit another country? Or, should we let Obama, a college graduate and ostensibly in charge of our national foreign policy make these decisions based on the information in front of him. If we let W decide which countries to invade, can’t we let Obama decide which countries to visit on invitation? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/30 "2014-03-29T20:28:34Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Sigh. > > There is a huge difference between being gay and having sex with other men. But the latter is illegal in SA, yes? ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/31 "2014-03-29T20:48:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Sigh. > > There is a huge difference between being gay and having sex with other men. > > Most members of La Eme(AKA The Mexican Mafia) arguably the most dangerous prison gang in the US have had sex with other men but that doesn’t mean they’re gay. > > In fact one of their oaths they swear is “don’t be a maricon”. > > They just adopt the idea that tucking another man, so long as you’re the top, doesn’t count. That said amongst them, as anyone familiar with the controversy over America Me can testify to, being portrayed as a “punk” “bitch” or “bottom” is a huge insult. > > Many though not all Middle Eastern Muslims grow up in environments where I married women don’t “put out” because there are heavy taboos against it with extreme sanctions and it’s common for marriages to not take place until the late 20s, so men, being horny, seek release elsewhere. > > Hence, many develops different ideas about what does and doesn’t constitute “gay” behavior. > > That’s why you can have stupid things like the Turkish army banning “homosexuals” but to avoid getting drafted on that basis you’d have to provide video evidence of yourself being the bottom to another man. **Sorry, but having sex with men in prison is a far cry from engaging in sex with them when you are not.**. If someone does so and does not consider themselves to be bisexual or gay, then they are moving the goalpost (no pun intended). If women are available and you still choose to have intimate relations with men, then you are probably gay or bisexual. Deal with it,man. Anyway, Saudi Arabia is only going change its society when its residents decide that the change will benefit them. Until then, the US simple needs to practice \*Realpolitik \*and “keep on keeping on.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/32 "2014-03-29T20:55:18Z")
How is Saudi Arabia “the only stable power in the region”? > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Well, should Obama be the one to decide whether, how and when he visits any other country? Yes. Just like we should let the President invade Iraq whenever he wants to. He _is_ the commander-in-chief, after all. Wait, that didn’t go so well. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/33 "2014-03-29T21:05:02Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > **Sorry, but having sex with men in prison is a far cry from engaging in sex with them when you are not.**. If someone does so and does not consider themselves to be bisexual or gay, then they are moving the goalpost (no pun intended). If women are available and you still choose to have intimate relations with men, then you are probably gay or bisexual. > > Deal with it,man. > > Anyway, Saudi Arabia is only going change its society when its residents decide that the change will benefit them. Until then, the US simple needs to practice \*Realpolitik \*and “keep on keeping on.” Er… did you actually read my post? I merely pointed out that many I married men in the Middle East engage in such behavior because unmarried women are usually unavailable. That is especially true in countries like Saudi Arabia where it’s quite difficult to be alone with women you’re not related to by blood or marriage. Nor is such behavior alien in the West. Men are horny creatures who like having sex and when put in situations where women aren’t available they’ll find other ways. That’s been traditionally true for the military, prison, boarding schools and similar environments. Hell in late 19th Century New York, many men used to visit male prostitutes because they had a difficult time finding women willing to give blow jobs. Anyway the point is that many people have different attitudes regarding what is and isn’t “gay” behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/34 "2014-03-29T21:09:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But the latter is illegal in SA, yes? Technically both are but I suspect most men in Saudi Arabia have engaged in ass play. The same is true of Iran and Afghanistan(with their infamous tea boys) and less true of other countries where gender segregation is vastly less rigid. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/35 "2014-03-29T21:14:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How is Saudi Arabia “the only stable power in the region”? Israel has never been stable since it was founded (strong yes, stable no; until the Palestinian problem is solved one way or another the country is a disaster waiting to happen and occasionally happening); even Turkey is rather unstable; and every other country in the region was destabilized to some degree by the Arab Spring, but SA was untouched. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/36 "2014-03-29T21:19:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Israel has never been stable since it was founded (strong yes, stable no; until the Palestinian problem is solved one way or another the country is a disaster waiting to happen and occasionally happening); even Turkey is rather unstable; and every other country in the region was destabilized to some degree by the Arab Spring, but SA was untouched. How is Israel “unstable”? ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/37 "2014-03-29T21:25:25Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Well, should Obama be the one to decide whether, how and when he visits any other country? Shouldn’t he have to abide by the decision of any drunken and/or ignorant message board poster that he has to stay in the United States? Shouldn’t he have to crawl on his hands and knees before his greatest detractors to get permission to visit another country? > > Or, should we let Obama, a college graduate and ostensibly in charge of our national foreign policy make these decisions based on the information in front of him. > > If we let W decide which countries to invade, can’t we let Obama decide which countries to visit on invitation? Good point. Obama’s got a _degree_. **aldiboronti** , how dare you try to control this educated man through the SDMB? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/38 "2014-03-29T21:32:32Z")
If Israel is unstable, every other country in the region is Mad Maxian. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/39 "2014-03-29T21:35:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > How is Israel “unstable”? Any country where something like the _Intifadah_ can happen is unstable. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782/40 "2014-03-29T21:52:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Any country where something like the _Intifadah_ can happen is unstable. Hmmm… It’s been awhile since I’ve heard a reference to “the Intifada” rather that “the first Intifada” or “the second Intifada” or “the Intifadas”, but that’s beside the point. Neither happened in Israel, they happened in the Occupied Territories nor were they ever a threat to the Israeli government. Anyway you’ve just announced the UK is an unstable country because of the Troubles which actually occurred within and killed far more British citizens than the Intifadas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-be-visiting-saudi-arabia/684782.md?page=1)