# Should Obama keep or dismantle the Department of Homeland Security? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 27, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886 "2008-12-27T23:25:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/1 "2008-12-27T23:25:16Z")
The creation of the [DHS](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_of_homeland_security) was really no more than a reorganization, hiving off 22 existing federal agencies from their parent departments and grouping them under a new one. I still think it was done only because the Admin felt they had to do **something.** Has the reorganization really produced any benefits in terms of coordinated action or cross-agency communication and cooperation? Even if it has not, has it now become a part of the federal status quo, which it would be more trouble than it’s worth to disturb? Or does the DHS in its current form actually have some potential that has yet to be realized, and which an imaginative and competent (we may hope) new administration might realize? What, if anything, should/would Obama do with it? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/2 "2008-12-27T23:32:38Z")
He could return FEMA to the status of an independant agency under his direct control. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/3 "2008-12-27T23:41:13Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > He could return FEMA to the status of an independant agency under his direct control. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/4 "2008-12-28T00:41:39Z")
I think there’s some value to the _idea_ of a unified security + espionage + law enforcement body, whose functions and data gathering are coordinated at a level short of the President. Beyond the CIA/FBI/NSA games of the recent past, contemplate the half dozen groups trying to “play sky” during World War II (there was a recent book on this). As more and more is unearthed about the Pearl Harbor attack, it becomes evident that the armed services’ intelligence units were aware to expect an attack, but not where – and hence properly prepared for the wrong thing (they set up to defend against sabotage at Pearl as opposed to open attack) while J, Edgar Hoover was aware of a planned attack on Hawaii, but not when, and was not aware he knew what was planned until hindsight after the attack. I think it’s important that such an agency be under someone of absolute integrity, who can be trusted to maximize the legitimate use of such coordination and forestall its improper use. If there is not a way to guarantee that against partisan or ideologic misuse (in either direction), then it’s probably wise to break it up. And, of course, someone should give the TSA a remedial course in civics. (The minority of decent conscientious TSA employees need not get up in arms about this, thankew.) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/5 "2008-12-28T00:49:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? Because the purpose of FEMA does not mesh with the purpose of Homeland Security, and FEMA will always be a low priority while it is within an organization whose reason for existence is to prevent an attack. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/6 "2008-12-28T00:52:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? Because it worked much better that way. FEMA was a great organization until Bush rolled it into DHS. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/7 "2008-12-28T01:39:51Z")
Obama should eliminate it just because it was created by Bush. It’s sure to be full of the corrupt, the incompetent, fanatics, and the destructively partisan. He should scrape the government clean of Bushism as far as he can. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/8 "2008-12-28T01:46:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Obama should eliminate it just because it was created by Bush. It’s sure to be full of the corrupt, the incompetent, fanatics, and the destructively partisan. He should scrape the government clean of Bushism as far as he can. The political appointments will all be gone. Civil servants that work for customs, immigration, the Coast Guard and the Secret Service and so on will still work for their various departments, regardless of what cabinet position they’re under. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/9 "2008-12-28T01:56:26Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > The political appointments will all be gone. Civil servants that work for customs, immigration, the Coast Guard and the Secret Service and so on will still work for their various departments, regardless of what cabinet position they’re under. Actually as I understand it a lot of political appointees do what’s called “burrowing in”; transfer to civil service jobs that make it harder to get rid of them. Wiping the whole agency out of existence will eliminate them all, at least in Homeland Security. And I don’t see any reason to preserve it. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/10 "2008-12-28T02:02:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Actually as I understand it a lot of political appointees do what’s called “burrowing in”; transfer to civil service jobs that make it harder to get rid of them. Wiping the whole agency out of existence will eliminate them all, at least in Homeland Security. And I don’t see any reason to preserve it. I’m not sure I get this. Are you suggesting that Homeland Security be wiped out in its entirety? As in, do away with customs, immigration, the Coast Guard and the Secret Service and so on? And FEMA? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/11 "2008-12-28T02:05:13Z")
Wouldn’t it take an act of Congress to revoke the [Homeland Security Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_Security_Act)? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/12 "2008-12-28T02:17:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wouldn’t it take an act of Congress to revoke the [Homeland Security Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_Security_Act)? Yes, which Congress passed at Bush’s behest, and probably would repeal at Obama’s. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/13 "2008-12-28T02:17:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wouldn’t it take an act of Congress to revoke the [Homeland Security Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_Security_Act)? Yes. Are you suggesting that Congress would not do so if presented with a reasonable alternative by the new president? i.e., one that did not consist of doing away with customs, immigration, the Coast Guard and the Secret Service and so on? And FEMA? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/14 "2008-12-28T02:30:17Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Yes. Are you suggesting that Congress would not do so if presented with a reasonable alternative by the new president? i.e., one that did not consist of doing away with customs, immigration, the Coast Guard and the Secret Service and so on? And FEMA? 😉 I don’t know. The Dems don’t have a filibuster-proof Senate. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/15 "2008-12-28T02:52:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know. I’ll add that I believe that an appropriately structured Department of Homeland Security is fine by me, such as moving FEMA to somewhere it better belongs. Interior, maybe. I’ll also add that the lack of one is fine by me too, if its departments are spread appropriately, such as the Coast Guard belongs in Defense instead of Interior, and so on. I don’t see why a new president with a new congress could not present and pass a reasonable plan. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/16 "2008-12-28T03:30:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know. The Dems don’t have a filibuster-proof Senate. What kind of Congressional constituency does DHS have, that there would be a filibuster to defend it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/17 "2008-12-28T04:38:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What kind of Congressional constituency does DHS have, that there would be a filibuster to defend it? You’re looking at it the wrong way. What’s in it for the Republicans to comply with this? Why not paint the Democrats as “weak on terrorism”? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/18 "2008-12-28T12:54:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Actually as I understand it a lot of political appointees do what’s called “burrowing in”; transfer to civil service jobs that make it harder to get rid of them. Wiping the whole agency out of existence will eliminate them all, at least in Homeland Security. And I don’t see any reason to preserve it. Oh God, from someone who deals with Homeland Security (Citizenship and Immigration Services, Customs and Border Protection, and related agencies) on a daily basis in her professional capacity, the _last_ thing those agencies need is to get rid of any employee who knows anything at all about their actual job functions. They really aren’t all horrible, though far too many of them are. As a former Federal employee, I know it’s a pain to get rid of an incompetent Federal employee, but yeesh, the managers are so chicken that they won’t even try IME. The documentation is a pain, but it _can_ be done. ---
**Author:** ![whorfin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@whorfin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whorfin)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/19 "2008-12-28T14:25:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re looking at it the wrong way. What’s in it for the Republicans to comply with this? Why not paint the Democrats as “weak on terrorism”? The dems have 58 senators. If they can’t find two moderate republican senators who’re up for re-election in two years, and see what happened to people like John Sununu, who they can convince to vote for them, they have no political skill whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886/20 "2008-12-28T17:32:48Z")
> [@whorfin](#): > > The dems have 58 senators. If they can’t find two moderate republican senators who’re up for re-election in two years, and see what happened to people like John Sununu, who they can convince to vote for them, they have no political skill whatsoever. It looks like Franken is probably going to win in Minnesota now, so that gives them 59 plus Lieberman. That’s all they need. Not that they probably couldn’t twist a couple of Republican arms anyway. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-keep-or-dismantle-the-department-of-homeland-security/478886.md?page=2)