# Should Obama Reconsider Closing Gitmo?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [January 13, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127 "2009-01-13T19:04:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/1 "2009-01-13T19:04:49Z")
Gitmo releasees “return” to terrorism:[Pentagon: 61 ex-Guantanamo inmates return to terrorism | Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE50C5JX20090113?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true)
In view of this, may we reconsider that locking up these monsters was the right decision? of course, if they wind up murdering US citizens, we might have to restrict their freedoms.
i feel so bad for these terrorists-being confined so long (when all they want to do is kill innocent people).😃
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/2 "2009-01-13T19:23:06Z")
Who on earth would trust the Pentagon when they something like this? They’ve done nothing but lie, lie, lie since they first started torturing innocent people at Guantanamo.
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### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/3 "2009-01-13T19:28:53Z")
The article says that:
> [@](#):
>
> “The overall known terrorist re-engagement rate has increased to 11 percent” from about 7 percent, Morrell said.
I’m not sure what exactly he means by “re-engagement”. Does it mean actual acts of terrorism? Physical support for other terrorists? Moral support?
Recidivism rates for “regular” criminals are reported to be [50 - 60%](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism) It seems that the Gitmo prisoners are doing pretty good.
What about the 50 detainees there that have been cleared for release but have nowhere to go?
What about having actual trials for the prisoners there so we can tell who needs to be kept incarcerated?
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### Author:  [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/4 "2009-01-13T19:29:07Z")
There is one sign the Americans can make that would be unmistakable, that would advance dramatically the cause of freedom and peace. Mr. Obama, open this gate. Mr. Obama, tear down these walls.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/5 "2009-01-13T19:30:25Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> In view of this, may we reconsider that locking up these monsters was the right decision?
This is the right decision. If these people now hate the United States and want to get revenge… well, not to put too fine a point on it, but…
THAT’S WHY YOU DON’T PUT PEOPLE IN FUCKING PRISON CAMPS!
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/6 "2009-01-13T19:31:49Z")
That whole article sounds like political, posturing bullshit by the Pentagon. How are they defining “terrorism?” What does “returning to the fight” mean?
This is nothing but an attempt to poison the well for Obama’s plans to close that shit hole next week and make it seem like he’s turning desperate “monsters” loose on the world. There are no facts in that story, just ambiguous, highly spun insinuations by the butt hurt losers of an election.
Not only should Obama cut those prisoners loose next week, he should give them money, citizenships, homes and jobs – all in Crawford, Texas.
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/7 "2009-01-13T19:37:49Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> Gitmo releasees “return” to terrorism:[http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE50C5JX20090113?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true](http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE50C5JX20090113?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true)
> In view of this, may we reconsider that locking up these monsters was the right decision? of course, if they wind up murdering US citizens, we might have to restrict their freedoms.
> i feel so bad for these terrorists-being confined so long (when all they want to do is kill innocent people).😃
What a remarkably stupid and unnuanced stance to take.
1. Many of these people were not “captured on the battlefield” like your ignorant right-wing echo chamber likes to say. They were fingered by civilian informants for money. Would any of your neighbors have you thrown into GITMO for 25k?
2. Keeping people in secret jails without trials indefinitely is unamerican.
3. Torturing people in secret jails is unamerican.
If you support America acting like Soviet Russia or China and being a totalitarian lawless state with fiat imprisonment, you’re a grade A shitheel.
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/8 "2009-01-13T19:47:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> Not only should Obama cut those prisoners loose next week, he should give them money, citizenships, homes and jobs – all in Crawford, Texas.
Bush is moving to a gated community in Dallas. Remember, the “ranch” was all Reaganesque backdrop, not in any way real.
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### Author:  [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/9 "2009-01-13T19:56:06Z")
> [@Lobohan](#):
>
> What a remarkably stupid and unnuanced stance to take.
>
> 1. Many of these people were not “captured on the battlefield” like your ignorant right-wing echo chamber likes to say. They were fingered by civilian informants for money. Would any of your neighbors have you thrown into GITMO for 25k?
>
> 2. Keeping people in secret jails without trials indefinitely is unamerican.
>
> 3. Torturing people in secret jails is unamerican.
>
> If you support America acting like Soviet Russia or China and being a totalitarian lawless state with fiat imprisonment, you’re a grade A shitheel.
Speaking of secret jails, aren’t/weren’t there others besides Gitmo ? I think I remember reading something about locations in Europe as well - but that’s a really vague recollection I can’t for the life of me pinpoint back. Ring any bells, or am I going loopier than usual ?
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/10 "2009-01-13T20:17:19Z")
> [@Kobal2](#):
>
> Speaking of secret jails, aren’t/weren’t there others besides Gitmo ? I think I remember reading something about locations in Europe as well - but that’s a really vague recollection I can’t for the life of me pinpoint back. Ring any bells, or am I going loopier than usual ?
[No, that’s real enough.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html) See [“Black sites.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site)
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/11 "2009-01-13T20:18:38Z")
> [@Lobohan](#):
>
> Would any of your neighbors have you thrown into GITMO for 25k?
[waves hand] How long do I have to raise the $25k?
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### Author:  [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/12 "2009-01-13T20:19:21Z")
Yes, he should reconsider it, and then come to the exact same conclusion that it should be closed.
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/13 "2009-01-13T20:26:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> [waves hand] How long do I have to raise the $25k?
I’ll go in halfsies with you. 😃
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### Author:  [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/14 "2009-01-13T20:54:41Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#):
>
> Who on earth would trust the Pentagon when they something like this? They’ve done nothing but lie, lie, lie since they first started torturing innocent people at Guantanamo.
Ok, so we will assume that you are correct (everything the Pentagon releases is a lie).
And all of the detainees are innocent, peaceloving folk.
Then why do their home countries refuse to take them back? (Or in the case of Saudi Arabia, RETURNESS ARE SUBJECT TO IMMEDIATE IMPRISONMENT AND POSSIBLE CAPITAL PUNISHMENT).
Again, I’m sure you know more than anybody, but please provide a cite for your assertions.😃
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### Author:  [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/15 "2009-01-13T20:55:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> [No, that’s real enough.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html) See [“Black sites.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site)
Any mention of shutting those down in Obama’s plans ? 'Cause from the looks of it, I’d say they’re even worse than Gitmo is, which is quite a feat in and of itself :mad:
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/16 "2009-01-13T21:13:02Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> please provide a cite for your assertions.😃
With pleasure.
> [@](#):
>
> Pentagon officials apparently lied to reporters last Friday when they said that the top US general in Iraq had not permitted the use of banned interrogation techniques such as stripping prisoners, sleep deprivation, un-muzzled military dogs, and “environmental manipulation.”
> **[Pentagon Lied to Reporters About Interrogations - Antiwar.com](https://original.antiwar.com/mark-rothschild/2004/05/20/pentagon-lied-to-reporters-about-interrogations/)**
>
> Pentagon officials apparently lied to reporters last Friday when they said that the top US general in Iraq had not permitted the use of banned interrogation techniques such as stripping prisoners, sleep deprivation, un-muzzled military dogs, and...
One of many possible examples. Anybody who’s followed the news knows that the Pentagon and the Bush Administration have pulled a game of gradual retreats on torture. They said first that nobody was torued, then that “a few bad eggs” did a few mild atrocities, then that those bad eggs did a few severe atrocities, then that the White House had approved “enhnaced interrogation techniques” but only in a few cases, and so forth. But they have never acknowledged the facts that scores of detainees have been tortured to death and that this was done with the approval of George W. Bush. [Here’s a cite for that.](http://www.cjr.org/full_court_press/winners_sinners_5.php?page=all)
I’d also urge you to reconsider your belief that the justice system of Saudi Arabia provides a good measure for judging who’s guilty and who isn’t. From CNN last year:
> [@](#):
>
> Two years ago, a teenager was raped by seven men who found her alone with a man unrelated to her. The government sentenced the 19-year-old woman to 200 lashes and six months in prison for being in the company of a man who wasn’t a family member or her husband.
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### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/17 "2009-01-13T21:18:48Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> Ok, so we will assume that you are correct (everything the Pentagon releases is a lie).
> And all of the detainees are innocent, peaceloving folk.
> Then why do their home countries refuse to take them back? (Or in the case of Saudi Arabia, RETURNESS ARE SUBJECT TO IMMEDIATE IMPRISONMENT AND POSSIBLE CAPITAL PUNISHMENT).
> Again, I’m sure you know more than anybody, but please provide a cite for your assertions.😃
In the case of the 17 Chinese Muslims [That were ordered released by a Federal Judge in October](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27068671), I believe that they would be tortured by China if they went back there.
They are no longer considered to be enemy combatants, but the Bush admin did not want to release them anyway.
> [@](#):
>
> While the government no longer considers the Uighurs enemy combatants and they were cleared for release from Guantanamo Bay as early as 2003, they fear they would face torture and imprisonment as political dissidents if returned to China - a fear Beijing says is unfounded.
[from here](http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2008-11/2008-11-25-voa4.cfm?CFID=91472100&CFTOKEN=81793317&jsessionid=8830d5e2fe4654f9e03a2476b677c252314f)
What did these 17 do wrong?
> [@](#):
>
> Attorneys for the detainees also argued that the government has yet to produce evidence that the men would pose a security threat in the United States. The government has asserted they received military training in camps in Afghanistan.
[same cite](http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2008-11/2008-11-25-voa4.cfm?CFID=91472100&CFTOKEN=81793317&jsessionid=8830d5e2fe4654f9e03a2476b677c252314f)
So… The government asserts they are terrorists, but produces no evidence. The government keeps them in Gitmo for 7 years with no trial and never producing anything resembling evidence. The government admits that they are no longer considered to be enemy combatants, but does not want to release them anyway.
Are you proud of this? Do you want this state of affairs to continue?
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### Author:  [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/18 "2009-01-13T21:22:17Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> Ok, so we will assume that you are correct (everything the Pentagon releases is a lie).
> And all of the detainees are innocent, peaceloving folk.
If even _one_ of them is innocent, then that’s too many. Your OP seems to be based on the assumption that they’re all definitely guilty.
If only we had a system in place to determine guilt and innocence . . . .
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### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/19 "2009-01-13T21:29:27Z")
This seems like good time to quote this:
> [@](#):
>
> An eight-month McClatchy investigation in 11 countries on three continents has found that Akhtiar was one of dozens and perhaps hundreds of men whom the U.S. has wrongfully imprisoned in Afghanistan, Cuba and elsewhere on the basis of flimsy or fabricated evidence, old personal scores or bounty payments.
>
> McClatchy interviewed 66 released detainees, along with a number of local officials, primarily in Afghanistan, and reviewed available U.S. military tribunal documents and other records.
>
> Most of the 66 were low-level Taliban grunts, innocent Afghan villagers or ordinary criminals, the McClatchy investigation found. At least seven had been working for the U.S.-backed Afghan government and had no ties to militants, according to Afghan local officials.
>
> Of course, Guantanamo also houses Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks, who faces military commission charges along with four other high-profile detainees. Cases have also been opened against 15 other detainees for assorted offenses, such as attending al-Qaida training camps.
>
> But because Guantanamo was set up under special rules that allowed indefinite detention without charges, it’s impossible to know how many of the 770 men who have been held there were terrorists.
[From here](http://www.newsobserver.com/nation_world/story/1108792.html) (only a portion quoted)
This is the part I really have a problem with, and it is really not in dispute:
**it’s impossible to know how many of the 770 men who have been held there were terrorists.**
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### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/20 "2009-01-13T21:47:31Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#):
>
> Who on earth would trust the Pentagon when they something like this?
I accidentally my neighbor for $25K.
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