# Should Obama Reconsider Closing Gitmo?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [January 13, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127 "2009-01-13T19:04:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/21 "2009-01-13T22:03:17Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> Ok, so we will assume that you are correct (everything the Pentagon releases is a lie).
> And all of the detainees are innocent, peaceloving folk.
> Then why do their home countries refuse to take them back? (Or in the case of Saudi Arabia, RETURNESS ARE SUBJECT TO IMMEDIATE IMPRISONMENT AND POSSIBLE CAPITAL PUNISHMENT).
> Again, I’m sure you know more than anybody, but please provide a cite for your assertions.😃
Can your mind imagine anything that isn’t binary? Are you too stupid to imagine that perhaps they aren’t all innocent or guilty as a mass?
Maybe some of them are innocent and some are guilty?
Is this the state of modern conservatism? Only the most unthinking, unaware and unquestioning are left in the fold?
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### Author:  [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/22 "2009-01-13T22:10:56Z")
The lack of details makes it pretty meaningless. Except that “returned to terrorism” implies confident knowledge & evidence that they were terrorists before which makes one wonder why they were released. Except the Pentagon won’t say. :dubious:
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### Author:  [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/23 "2009-01-13T22:25:00Z")
> [@Lobohan](#):
>
> 1. Many of these people were not “captured on the battlefield” like your ignorant right-wing echo chamber likes to say. They were fingered by civilian informants for money. Would any of your neighbors have you thrown into GITMO for 25k?
As a fellow Bay Stater, and thus qualifying as a neighbor, I’d be willing to do it to our **ralph124c** for an [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) gift card and a Kennedy half-dollar.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/24 "2009-01-13T22:31:41Z")
No, I think he is making the right decision. I think holding these guys in Gitmo was a huge mistake. If we have strong evidence showing that these folks are terrorists or have committed crimes then they should be prosecuted under our own laws and punished under our own system…or turned over to their own governments for prosecution and punishment under their own system (which would probably be a hell of a lot worse). If we don’t have such evidence then they should be turned loose.
-XT
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/25 "2009-01-13T22:33:09Z")
> [@Lobohan](#):
>
> Can your mind imagine anything that isn’t binary? Are you too stupid to imagine that perhaps they aren’t all innocent or guilty as a mass?
Please imagine an argument with **ralph124c** that doesn’t involve insults, because they’re not allowed outside the Pit. Thanks.
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### Author:  [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/26 "2009-01-13T22:58:24Z")
You folks know the saying, it is better to imprison 1000 innocent people than to let one guilty person go free.
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### Author:  [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/27 "2009-01-13T23:17:06Z")
Gitmo is a bloody disgrace. The sooner it’s closed, the better. Everybody in there who can be brought up to a trial should be, everybody else should be released - and at the very least it should be made sure those people won’t have to live in fear of their lives.
Any risks resulting from these actions are
1. worth it.
2. brought on the US by its own actions.
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### Author:  [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/28 "2009-01-13T23:19:24Z")
My thoughts:
1. Close Gitmo, simply to erase the symbol.
2. From now on, anyone captured in Afghanistan is turned over to our puppet government there. Anyone captured in Iraq is turned over to our puppet government there.
3. Anyone capture elsewhere as part of the Global War on Vague Terms will be questioned, tried if we got something on them, and then returned to the nation of their citizenship.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/29 "2009-01-13T23:59:12Z")
> [@Algher](#):
>
> My thoughts:
>
> 1. Close Gitmo, simply to erase the symbol.
It’s not clear to me that _we_ can erase the symbol of our shame. It might be more effective to turn the base over to Cuba, and offer to help them construct an international peace park or some such on the site.
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### Author:  [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/30 "2009-01-14T00:54:34Z")
> [@Jophiel](#):
>
> The lack of details makes it pretty meaningless. Except that “returned to terrorism” implies confident knowledge & evidence that they were terrorists before which makes one wonder why they were released. Except the Pentagon won’t say. :dubious:
Exactly. It just so happens that the only organization allowed to know what the detainees/abductees have done and haven’t done also has a vested interest in not having anyone know what the fuck happened in Guantanamo in the heyday of the war on terror. There’s a handful of military careers about to be snapped as so many matchsticks, and they know it.
Short-time convenience can cause long-time problems. Consider it a test, **ralph** - is this nation able to regain the courage of its convictions?
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/31 "2009-01-14T00:58:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Please imagine an argument with **ralph124c** that doesn’t involve insults, because they’re not allowed outside the Pit. Thanks.
I’ll reign it in.
On topic, I’d like to hear back about how Ralph knows that everyone in GITMO is a terrorist. And if there are innocent people there, what percentage of innocent people is worth getting worked up about?
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/32 "2009-01-14T01:03:54Z")
[QUOTE=Lobohan]
On topic, I’d like to hear back about how Ralph knows that everyone in GITMO is a terrorist. And if there are innocent people there, what percentage of innocent people is worth getting worked up about?
[/QUOTE]
No system of justice is perfect. There is always going to be some percentage of innocent people wrongfully held. The problem with Gitmo isn’t that there are some innocent people there. The problem is that there is no process to actually determine guilt or innocence. I have no doubt that the majority of the folks in there are guilty of something. However, our justice system doesn’t work that way. Evidence must be presented and some process established to allow those accused of guilt their chance to prove their innocence. If there is not sufficient evidence then no matter how guilty the people there are they need to be let go.
Kafkaesque doesn’t even begin to describe the convoluted circumstances for most of the people remaining there. There needs to be closure. If there IS evidence then the guilty need to be tried and punished. If not…then set free. Hopefully Obama will be able to follow through on this to give us some closure on this.
-XT
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### Author:  [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/33 "2009-01-14T01:20:06Z")
I find it remarkable that _only_ 11 percent of the people that where freed from Gitmo allegedly turned against US interest in some way or form in some undisclosed place or another.
To begin with, even with the blind squirrel approach seemingly used to dump people in those black holes I would had expected more than 11 percent of actual terrorists to be catch.
Secondly, even if 100% of the prisoners where innocent and pure as virgin snow, after years of wrongful detention and tort… enhanced interrogation methods; that just 11 per cent, when finally released would seek revenge is astounding. Are they really targeting muslim extremist or they made a typo and rounded up buddhist monks?
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### Author:  [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/34 "2009-01-14T01:56:48Z")
> [@Lobohan](#):
>
> I’ll reign it in.
>
> On topic, I’d like to hear back about how Ralph knows that everyone in GITMO is a terrorist. And if there are innocent people there, what percentage of innocent people is worth getting worked up about?
Please back up your claim. Are you saying everybody in the US Military is an idiot? That these detainees were arrested and held for NO REASON AT ALL? Have you (perhaps) considered that they may wel be members of Al Queda?
Yes, we go around arresting people totally at random. Got any other fairy stories?
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/35 "2009-01-14T02:07:49Z")
Seriously…how would we know? Without any process to judge the guilt or innocence, without any means for those incarcerated to present any evidence, how can we determine anything? How can anyone be held accountable?
And without that accountability how do we know that the system isn’t being abused in our names? If there is any evidence then it should be presented. If not…then regardless of the actual guilt of those involved they should be set free. THAT is how our system works.
-XT
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/36 "2009-01-14T02:15:56Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> Please back up your claim. Are you saying everybody in the US Military is an idiot?
The military’s not at fault. The civilian leadership is. Not because they were dumb, but because they didn’t care. They wanted to fill cages to pacify the rubes. They filled cages.
> [@](#):
>
> That these detainees were arrested and held for NO REASON AT ALL?
Yep. Read a paper. Many of them were innocent civilians bought for bounties.
> [@](#):
>
> Have you (perhaps) considered that they may well be members of Al Queda?
If you have proof, let’s see it.
> [@](#):
>
> Yes, we go around arresting people totally at random.
As a matter of fact, we do.
[70-90% of Iraq Prisoners “arrested by mistake.”](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0511-04.htm)
Many of the Gitmo prisoners were bought for bounties from local warlords who snatched up civilians at random. If you want to assert that these people are terrorists, the burden of proof is on YOU.
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### Author:  [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/37 "2009-01-14T02:36:45Z")
Prisoners of war are not criminals.
Prisoners of war are not released until the war is over. (Art. 118 - Geneva)
GITMO is not a prison, it’s a POW camp.
Internationa humanitarian law recognises the difference between lawful and unlawful combatants. (art 4 and 5)
POW are not detained, they are captured.
The BIG problem is that there is no easy way of saying: WAR IS OVER. There is no guy to sign the surrender papers, this means GITMO guys could be there indefinitely without breaking the letter of the law.
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### Author:  [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/38 "2009-01-14T02:41:56Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#):
>
> Prisoners of war are not criminals.
> Prisoners of war are not released until the war is over. (Art. 118 - Geneva)
> GITMO is not a prison, it’s a POW camp.
> Internationa humanitarian law recognises the difference between lawful and unlawful combatants. (art 4 and 5)
> POW are not detained, they are captured.
> The BIG problem is that there is no easy way of saying: WAR IS OVER. There is no guy to sign the surrender papers, this means GITMO guys could be there indefinitely without breaking the letter of the law.
War? what war?
The US hasn’t declared war on any nation.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/39 "2009-01-14T02:43:20Z")
Was there a declaration of war when I wasn’t looking?? I must have missed that. BTW, prisoners of war are entitled to certain rights that have been waved in the case of the Gitmo prisoners. You can’t have it both ways. If they ARE prisoners of war (a very specific term in the GC) then they can’t be held or questioned as they have been. If they aren’t prisoners of war (but instead ‘enemy combatants’) then they have to be tried in some way or other. In either case the way they have been treated reflects no glory on our country or our system and needs to be resolved.
Personally I don’t care what happens to the guilty. Imprison them, shoot them, whatever. However, I care very much determining who IS guilty and who is not guilty and seeing justice done. I truly can’t see how any real America can disagree with this to be honest.
-XT
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### Author:  [@The\_Batman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Batman)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/40 "2009-01-14T02:56:37Z")
I think Obama is right to have it closed. It’s an embarrassment to the nation, it goes against everything the country believes in, and it’s a waste of money and effort.
By this point I’m sure the government knows which detainees are the real deal and which ones are in because they said french wines are better than Napa Valley, so keeping track of ex-detainees shouldn’t be the chore they constantly complain about.
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