# Should Obama Reconsider Closing Gitmo?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [January 13, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127 "2009-01-13T19:04:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/41 "2009-01-14T03:16:25Z")
It’s probably too late to run proper court trials to determine guilt. You might as well eject the prisoners.
Probably a lot of them are guilty and will go and do bad things. But in the same vein, when a cop uses extra-legal means to secure evidence and all that evidence is thrown out, the bad person gets to go free. This is the price of Rule of Law. Bush should have followed proper protocol in dealing with these people, or at least made sure that their capture was never made public. Either way he was thoroughly incompetent and the blame falls squarely on his shoulders.
---
### Author:  [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/42 "2009-01-14T03:30:01Z")
Why do you hate American values, Ralph?
---
### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/43 "2009-01-14T04:01:35Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#):
>
> Prisoners of war are not criminals.
Being sold for profit doesn’t make you a POW.
> [@Ale](#):
>
> I find it remarkable that _only_ 11 percent of the people that where freed from Gitmo allegedly turned against US interest in some way or form in some undisclosed place or another.
>
> To begin with, even with the blind squirrel approach seemingly used to dump people in those black holes I would had expected more than 11 percent of actual terrorists to be catch.
> Secondly, even if 100% of the prisoners where innocent and pure as virgin snow, after years of wrongful detention and tort… enhanced interrogation methods; that just 11 per cent, when finally released would seek revenge is astounding. Are they really targeting muslim extremist or they made a typo and rounded up buddhist monks?
I suspect that they simply made the 11% percent figure up. How would they even know if some guy that sniped an American somewhere or set off a bomb and was never caught was a former prisoner ?
---
### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/44 "2009-01-14T04:23:12Z")
At a guess they don’t just release these guys with no follow up. If they follow up with them and they have disappeared they probably automatically assume they have decided to go back off the reservation. Though I agree in spirit…the 11% is probably mostly just a BS estimate.
-XT
---
### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/45 "2009-01-14T04:31:49Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#):
>
> Prisoners of war are not criminals.
> Prisoners of war are not released until the war is over. (Art. 118 - Geneva)
> GITMO is not a prison, it’s a POW camp.
> Internationa humanitarian law recognises the difference between lawful and unlawful combatants. (art 4 and 5)
> POW are not detained, they are captured.
> The BIG problem is that there is no easy way of saying: WAR IS OVER. There is no guy to sign the surrender papers, this means GITMO guys could be there indefinitely without breaking the letter of the law.
Prisoners of war are required to be treated a certain way, and that is NOT the way the detainees at Gitmo are being treated. The administration made VERY certain to make the distinction between POWs and unlawful combatants. The people detained at Gitmo are not POWs, or we’d have already had at least half this administration facing charges at The Hague.
Not that I don’t think they should already be charged for the things they HAVE done, but abusing POWs is not among them, by their own very careful definition.
---
### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/46 "2009-01-14T06:13:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Being sold for profit doesn’t make you a POW.
>
> I suspect that they simply made the 11% percent figure up. How would they even know if some guy that sniped an American somewhere or set off a bomb and was never caught was a former prisoner ?
I don’t know… they might have done sort of an exit interview.
You could imagine:
“Ok, you’re free to go. Before you do, what do you think of President George W. Bush?”
11% said “He’s a stinking bastard son of a camel.”
---
### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/47 "2009-01-14T07:52:13Z")
> [@](#):
>
> **xtisme** : Evidence must be presented and some process established to allow those accused of guilt their chance to prove their innocence.
In at least a civilian court in the USA, they wouldn’t have to prove their innocence. Their innocence would be presumed. The government would have to prove their guilt. Is it different for “enemy combatants”? That’s a very guilty label.
I feel certain that President-Elect Obama will order it closed as soon as it is possible. But ordering it closed he can do immediately. Getting the job done the right way may take some time. I have confidence in his ability to do what needs to be done. I have no confidence in Cheney who was out there trying to advise him on Gitmo today.
On one broadcast I heard that Obama’s approval rating is at 82%.
---
### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/48 "2009-01-14T18:42:32Z")
Here’s another great reason why Gitmo should be closed:
It seems that it’s been acknowledged that the reason Mohammed al-Qahtani, (alleged Saudi “20th” highjacker) had charges dismissed was…
He had his confession drawn out of him by torture. What a surprise!
This means that it was inadmissible.
Col. Crawford (Judge and convening authority of military commissions) said: “His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that is why I did not refer the case for prosecution.
[Link](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090114.wguantort0114/BNStory/International/home?cid=al_gam_mostview)
So, good work there guys! Someone who is very probably guilty gets off because you tortured a confession out of him.
---
### Author:  [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/49 "2009-01-14T20:33:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> This is the right decision. If these people now hate the United States and want to get revenge… well, not to put too fine a point on it, but…
>
> THAT’S WHY YOU DON’T PUT PEOPLE IN FUCKING PRISON CAMPS!
And why you should always leave a note!
Underneath the BS, there is a concern over what to do/how to climb down from the tiger. There was a thread not too long ago about this that was a bit less of a partisan screed, but I can’t find it at the moment.
ETA
Not the Dope, but required viewing to be familiar with both sides of the issue: [Formidable Opponent](http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/70789/june-15-2006/formidable-opponent---guantanamo-bay)
---
### Author:  [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/50 "2009-01-14T21:09:36Z")
definitely POWs are not fair game, even if they are unlawful combatants. I only wanted to point out that there are differences between the rules for criminal and POWs.
It is true that there is no formal declaration of war (teenage mockery aside) but then, it means that GITMO guys are in a deeper limbo.
There is a “declaration of war on terror” (whatever it means). International humanitarian Law does not specifically cover action in combat between a country and an organization that doesn not, even by defult or tradition, follows Geneva
In my country, Peru, terrorists were prosecuted as crminals and not POWs even if there was armed conflict because they never met the requirements of a bona fide armed group.
I wouldn’t close GITMO per se. I would quickly go through Article 5 hearings and quickly let all but the most cler cases go. There are, I assume, honest-to-god POWs and war criminal in GITMO so simply putting them in a plane and sending them back to wherever they were captured would not work.
As to torture, it would be interesting to know why the Democrats in Congress who were briefed about all procedures, including wateboarding, did not complain.
---
### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/51 "2009-01-14T21:19:07Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#):
>
> As to torture, it would be interesting to know why the Democrats in Congress who were briefed about all procedures, including wateboarding, did not complain.
Believe me, you’re not the only one who wonders about that. In my darker moments, I begin to think that’s why nothing has been done as far as actual oversight and investigation by Congress into violations of the Geneva Conventions. It’s entirely possible quite a few Democrats will be caught up in that net as well.
---
### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/52 "2009-01-14T21:19:57Z")
Let’s not kid ourselves, people - the primary attraction of Guantanamo is its remove from the reach of US law, and its “quaint” and “obsolete” notions of legality.
---
### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/53 "2009-01-14T21:20:58Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#):
>
> As to torture, it would be interesting to know why the Democrats in Congress who were briefed about all procedures, including wateboarding, did not complain.
Fear of the consequences of being branded anti-American. Shit, look what happened to the Dixie Chicks.
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/54 "2009-01-14T21:43:43Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#):
>
> You folks know the saying, it is better to imprison 1000 innocent people than to let one guilty person go free.
Sayings aren’t always accurate. That saying reflects a particular philosophy, that the guilty must be punished even at great cost to the innocent. Not everybody agrees with that.
---
### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/55 "2009-01-14T21:46:29Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#):
>
> Sayings aren’t always accurate. That saying reflects a particular philosophy, that the guilty must be punished even at great cost to the innocent. Not everybody agrees with that.
Whooshhhhhhhh! (read the quote again)
---
### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/56 "2009-01-14T21:47:56Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#):
>
> As to torture, it would be interesting to know why the Democrats in Congress who were briefed about all procedures, including wateboarding, did not complain.
Because they are spineless cowards.
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#):
>
> Sayings aren’t always accurate. That saying reflects a particular philosophy, that the guilty must be punished even at great cost to the innocent. Not everybody agrees with that.
I think you were whooshed there; I believe that was a joke about the saying that it’s better to release a thousand guilty men than punish one innocent man.
---
### Author:  [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/57 "2009-01-14T21:49:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> Let’s not kid ourselves, people - the primary attraction of Guantanamo is its remove from the reach of US law, and its “quaint” and “obsolete” notions of legality.
Agreed. They used its odd legalistic location to be a POW camp AND prison holding cell AND interrogation center.
They should declare war on AQ officially, and then treat everyone captured as a POW - who gets held until the war is over. Then at least there could be a real debate on what is going on.
---
### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/58 "2009-01-14T21:53:30Z")
> [@Algher](#):
>
> Agreed. They used its odd legalistic location to be a POW camp AND prison holding cell AND interrogation center.
>
> They should declare war on AQ officially, and then treat everyone captured as a POW - who gets held until the war is over. Then at least there could be a real debate on what is going on.
I may be wrong, but I think the reasoning behind denying that the prisoners at Gitmo were POW’s was that if they were, they would then have certain rights, like visits from the Red Cross (Red Crescent), and the freedom from torture, er I mean “enhanced interrogation”
---
### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/59 "2009-01-14T21:55:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Because they are spineless cowards.
They might also be fools, or self serving bastards. Politicians do the wrong thing for all sorts of reasons besides cowardice.
---
### Author:  [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127/60 "2009-01-14T21:57:48Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
>
> I may be wrong, but I think the reasoning behind denying that the prisoners at Gitmo were POW’s was that if they were, they would then have certain rights, like visits from the Red Cross (Red Crescent), and the freedom from torture, er I mean “enhanced interrogation”
I think you are absolutely correct.
From my perspective you are either a criminal or an enemy soldier. We need to pick one and follow-up on it. I also have no problem with war crimes trials for some of the POWs. This questionable classification is nonsense, and hurts us.
To clarify my stance - when I say “close Gitmo” - I mean the prison camp. The base can stay as far as I am concerned (and that can be the fodder for a different thread).
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127.md?page=2)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-obama-reconsider-closing-gitmo/481127.md?page=4)