# Should one's past as an adolescent bully be used against them in adulthood? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 28, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131 "2020-10-28T17:36:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/41 "2020-10-29T02:51:29Z")
Did you see what this kid did to his classmate? If adults did that to each other, they’d probably be arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/42 "2020-10-29T02:54:12Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Did he really? The family says he didn’t He did a court ordered program. I think it’s common to write an apology in some of these programs, but I don’t know if they would actually send it. Sometimes offender-contacts-victim is seen as a bad thing. I’m not surprised if he doesn’t remember the difference between writing an apology and sending it. He’s got a vested interest in that misunderstanding. On the other hand, I wouldn’t be surprised if the victim had received some court-ordered apology, and just thrown it out. That’s probably what I would do. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/43 "2020-10-29T02:55:17Z")
The popsicle in the urinal thing? Or the punching the kid thing? To be fair there is a whole lot there that an adult could get arrested for. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/44 "2020-10-29T03:11:54Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > What is the goal here? Punish him for past behavior? I guess that keeping him out of the NHL would do that, but I’m not sure it’s the NHL’s job to do that. If it came out that someone were 18 and they repeatedly called someone a n\*\*\*\*r five years ago or took advantage of and bullied someone who has a developmental disorder in the 8th grade or had a history of misogyny at that time, would they still have a job? It’s not about punishment, it’s about character and I certainly would not want someone like that in my company. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/45 "2020-10-29T03:22:10Z")
It’s interesting to contrast some of the sentiments in this thread with others in this one: [Is it silly to reach out after 40 years, out of the blue, to send an apology? - #113 by Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-silly-to-reach-out-after-40-years-out-of-the-blue-to-send-an-apology/923554/113) While a lot of the “nah, don’t apologize” posts focused on the fact that the transgression in question occurred 40 years ago, there was a little sideline discussion about the appropriateness of contacting someone you’d wronged at any time to apologize, because doing so might cause your victim more pain. There was a link in there to another thread in which people who had been contacted by 12-steppers making amends spoke about their experiences, and mostly did not care for it. Like many here, I’m not necessarily convinced this kid is genuinely sorry. But I do wonder what, hypothetically, a genuinely sorry person in his position should do. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/46 "2020-10-29T03:32:02Z")
Only if willing to hand over 50% of his paycheck. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/47 "2020-10-29T03:49:23Z")
In the 80s, the Detroit Tigers had two players who had earlier done hard time in the state penitentiary. Excused, paid their debt to society How is “debt to society” paid by a school kid who has never even been charged, only accused by someone years later, of actions that weren’t even criminal? Wait until he has 7-figure sports contract and then torpedo his career? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/48 "2020-10-29T04:00:36Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > How is “debt to society” paid by a school kid who has never even been charged, only accused by someone years later, of actions that weren’t even criminal? If you read the OP for comprehension, you would have seen: > [@](#): > > Four years ago, Miller admitted in an Ohio juvenile court to bullying Meyer-Crothers, who was tricked into licking a candy push pop that Miller and another boy had wiped in a bathroom urinal.Meyer-Crothers had to be tested for hepatitis, HIV and STDs, but the tests came back negative, according to a police report. So, though he was a juvenile, he did wind up in court over it _at the time_ (which would imply that there was some level of charges brought at that time), and it was _not_ an accusation that was made years later. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/49 "2020-10-29T09:51:11Z")
My question remains intact. What would have constitute “paying his debt to society”, as Gates Brown did to validate his career wth the Tigers? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/50 "2020-10-29T10:43:38Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > At the same time, I find it hard to forgive people who have been mean to me or others in their teen years, no matter whether they have “changed”. > > Maybe something like a public confession ceremony would help. People over the age of 25 admit that they have acted improperly and ask for forgiveness. And if they transgress again, then that’s it and there is no chance of redemption for them. > > Is anyone else interested in starting a new religion based on those principles? Doesn’t need to be a religion. > **[Truth commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_reconciliation_commission)** > > A truth commission, also known as a truth and reconciliation commission or truth and justice commission, is an official body tasked with discovering and revealing past wrongdoing by a government (or, depending on the circumstances, non-state actors also), in the hope of resolving conflict left over from the past. Truth commissions are, under various names, occasionally set up by states emerging from periods of internal unrest, civil war, or dictatorship marked by human rights abuses. In both th... ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/51 "2020-10-29T11:06:41Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > How is “debt to society” paid by a school kid who has never even been charged, only accused by someone years later, of actions that weren’t even criminal? Wait until he has 7-figure sports contract and then torpedo his career? The OP quotes: “Four years ago, Miller admitted in an Ohio juvenile court to bullying Meyer-Crothers.” [/quote] If he went to court, he must have been charged. Bullies don’t show up in court voluntarily, and IANAL but I guess the justice system thought a crime had been committed and compelled him. Also, it wasn’t just an accusation he denied…he admitted it. Not to minimize what he did, but we do charge kids as minors rather than adults for worse things. > **[Lionel Tate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Tate)** > > Lionel Alexander Tate (born January 30, 1987) is the youngest American citizen ever sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, though this sentence was eventually overturned. In January 2001, when Tate was 13, he was convicted of first-degree murder for the 1999 battering death of six-year-old Tiffany Eunick in Broward County, Florida. > On July 28, 1999, Tate was left alone with Eunick, who was being babysat by Tate's mother, Kathleen Grossett-Tate. While the children were ... I can see where a team would want skilled players but not want someone who kids can’t admire. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/52 "2020-10-29T14:07:19Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Only if willing to hand over 50% of his paycheck. Ha! That’s kind of my thought. Restorative justice is a good thing, and I like it a lot better than punitive justice. As I understand it, the “restorative” part means that you do something to repair the harm you caused. [Monetary Restitution](http://restorativejustice.org/restorative-justice/about-restorative-justice/tutorial-intro-to-restorative-justice/lesson-3-programs/restitution/#sthash.82jFNaAn.dpbs) can be a piece of this. IMO, this should be a “give until it hurts” situation: if the restitution doesn’t inconvenience the offender, it doesn’t really do much. So, yeah. Words are cheap. If this bully is willing to fork over half of his paycheck to his victim, and if the victim agrees that that’ll suffice to repair the harm caused by the bullying, I’df be fine with signing him on. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/53 "2020-10-29T15:08:48Z")
> [@Tabco](#): > > There was a person I bullied when I was in 8th grade. I made fun of him for the way he walked in PE. This probably went on for a few months before I got bored with it and stopped. Around 10th or 11th grade I began to reflect on my behavior and concluded I was wholly in the wrong for doing that. I had much the same sort of experience- while I wasn’t a full-time bully, there were a couple of people in 9th grade who I was fairly verbally abusive toward (not physically). By the last year or two of high school, I’d realized what a dick I’d been (helped along by having got a dose of my own medicine from older students), and quit doing that sort of thing. Now that I’m 48, I’d sure hate for that to be held against me now- I learned my lesson a long time ago and have not relapsed into that sort of behavior since. ---
**Author:** ![GrassFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b19c9b/32.png) [@GrassFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrassFox)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/54 "2020-10-29T15:27:27Z")
The grade school bully when I was in junior high is dead. He tried being tough to the wrong person when he was 19 and shooting dice in some alley. He got into an argument with some guy who stabbed him. I heard he took off running and hid in some bushes where he bled out and died. He didn’t mess with me much, but he did with many other kids. Had he been up for some job later in life, I would vote against him getting it. I would had doubt he would had changed much when he was older. He would had done lots of good in the community earlier before I would think differently. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/55 "2020-10-29T16:05:46Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Being a bully is fairly minor in the scheme of things that happen in high school and even more minor in middle school. I very much doubt that it looks minor to those who are/were seriously bullied. What ordinarily happens in high school and middle school that you think is worse than repeatedly tormenting other students? (Murdering them is certainly worse; but it’s also pretty rare.) \ – whether behavior at 14 should be held against someone who’s 18 (by those who weren’t directly involved, I doubt the bullied can help it) seems to me to depend on the specific case. Indication of genuine remorse, along with a significant change in behavior, shown before the person’s job becomes at risk, would incline me in the person’s favor: some people do grow up, and some bullies were doing so out of fear of otherwise becoming the bullied. But lacking evidence of remorse combined with a significant change in behavior: the person’s not being denied the job based on what they did previously. They’re being denied the job based on who they are now. The more recent the bad behavior is, the more this is an issue. ‘I’ve changed my ways, I didn’t bully anybody this week!’ is a whole lot less convincing than ‘I’ve changed my ways, I didn’t bully anybody for the last 30 years!’ ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/56 "2020-10-29T17:03:35Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The more recent the bad behavior is, the more this is an issue. ‘I’ve changed my ways, I didn’t bully anybody this week!’ is a whole lot less convincing than ‘I’ve changed my ways, I didn’t bully anybody for the last 30 years!’ How about “I haven’t bullied anyone in the last 20% of my life?” Look, I get it, for some people being kicked around when they were younger is a life defining moment, but it shouldn’t be and it shouldn’t have to be life defining for the bully either. Sure, if they keep up being shit heads then they should be removed from society but I have a whole lot less of an issue with this kid getting his shot to be a pro and do good in the world then Michael Vick, Ben Roethlisberger or Ray Rice. As far as a list of things I think are worse I’d go with drug dealing and theft as two things that routinely occured at my junior high that are worse than bullying. I think my high school had two murderers one [the year before I got there](https://santamariatimes.com/news/local/mother-share-pain-of-losing-her-daughter/article_ffb4a65c-81a8-5c7b-9227-87a070e97343.html) and one [7 years after I left](https://santamariatimes.com/news/local/suspect-arrested-after-man-found-decapitated/article_6980b89b-8ac6-57d6-a7ab-d670baa0da8f.html) both were much more traumatic than bullying and that doesn’t even get into school shootings. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/57 "2020-10-29T17:37:18Z")
Is this a trick question? No. He was 14 and he was (rightly) punished. Past and closed matter. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/58 "2020-10-29T18:15:14Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Look, I get it, for some people being kicked around when they were younger is a life defining moment, but it shouldn’t be You think that shouldn’t be a life defining moment, but losing a job at 18 should be? For some people, being “kicked around” as a child causes life time psychological damage. And even aside from that, being afraid at school is extremely likely to screw up one’s ability to learn in school. Failing to learn in elementary or high school can screw up one’s entire life. And I think deliberately tormenting somebody is far worse than either stealing from them or selling them drugs that they’re willing to buy. Mileage obviously varies (as does the effect of the drugs; ‘drug dealing’ can cover anything from handing a friend a joint to deliberately getting people addicted to meth or opiates.) > [@Oredigger77](#): > > How about “I haven’t bullied anyone in the last 20% of my life?” Do we know that he hasn’t? The OP article has the people who hired him discussing this as if it were an isolated incident. But the bullied person is quoted as saying > Meyer-Crothers, also 18 and who now lives in Detroit, said Miller had taunted him for years, constantly calling him “brownie” and the “N-word,” while repeatedly hitting him while growing up in the Toledo suburb. Other students at their junior high confirmed to police that Miller repeatedly used the “N-word” in referring to Meyer-Crothers. That’s not describing an isolated incident. And it’s not describing laughing at somebody else’s nasty jokes. It’s describing a repeated pattern of physical assault and racist verbal attacks. Maybe Miller did turn into a different person between 14 and 18. But I don’t think complying with a court requirement to write a letter is evidence of it. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/59 "2020-10-29T19:03:13Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > You think that shouldn’t be a life defining moment, but losing a job at 18 should be? A job that will pay you almost a million dollars a year for three years even after taxes and paying his agent Miller would have enough money that he would never have to work again. Having that vs no is a huge delta in someone’s life that couldn’t help being a defining moment. Go watch Raging Bull to see how missing you shot can affect you. Apparently, [Miller has been released by the team](https://www.nhl.com/coyotes/news/coyotes-renounce-rights-to-mitchell-miller/c-319543540). So I guess we’ll get to watch how much worse his life is than other kids who were drafted 4th and we can compare that to how much worse Meyer-Crothers life is to other kids. What to guess who is going to have the biggest delta? > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Do we know that he hasn’t? > > The OP article has the people who hired him discussing this as if it were an isolated incident. But the bullied person is quoted as saying I don’t know anything about the NHL but the NFL does huge background checks on every player they draft I would assume the NHL would have at least made sure there were no other incidences outside of the one kid the one year. While we’ve seen kids say stuff happened in Junior high there have been no accusations of anything happening in high school. I would guess that after going to court he may still be a racist douchebag but has learned to keep it on the DL and learned not to punch people, call them nasty names or give them urinal food. As someone who was arrested in high school it certainly changed my behavior if not my preference for fast and reckless driving. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/60 "2020-10-29T21:58:57Z")
The Coyotes have now renounced his rights. > **[Coyotes renounce rights to controversial pick](https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/30218487/arizona-coyotes-renounce-rights-draft-pick-mitchell-miller-history-assault-racism-surface)** > > The Arizona Coyotes are renouncing the rights to draft pick Mitchell Miller after his history of assault and racism as a juvenile were spotlighted in a newspaper investigation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131.md?page=4)