# Should one's past as an adolescent bully be used against them in adulthood? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 28, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131 "2020-10-28T17:36:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/101 "2020-11-02T06:32:55Z")
A little more, about Miller and his remorsefulness (or lack thereof), from an article in The Hockey News: > [@](#): > > I’ve spoken to three current head scouts and one retired and not one of them would have picked Miller in the draft solely because of Miller’s past. One of them said he really dug in on Miller and spent hours of his time on calls with coaches and teammates who all had glowing things to say about the player. But he also interviewed Miller on more than one occasion specifically about the incident and that’s when he made the determination that Miller would be taken off their draft list. “I didn’t get the feeling there was remorse,” he said. “Now I’m not saying he’s a sociopath or psychopath, but basically he said, ‘Yeah, I did it. It was stupid, it was wrong.’ But it was more than that and you wanted to him say that he realized it was more than that.” The writer also feels that both the University of North Dakota, and the Arizona Coyotes, have a share of the blame for what happened to Miller over the past week: > [@](#): > > In announcing that Miller would no longer be part of the UND hockey program, university president Andrew Armacost said, “We expect our students to live by our values in the classroom, in the community and when representing the university on the field of play.” Fine. But if that’s the case, why offer him a spot on the hockey team in the first place? Nothing has changed with this situation from the time Miller committed to UND and now with the exception of the fact that the story made its way into the public domain. Miller committed to North Dakota _more than_ _two years ago when he was playing midget hockey_ , so it’s not as though the university didn’t have time to find out whether he represented its values. And for both UND and the Coyotes to bring Miller into their organization knowing his past without a clear plan to address his past is reprehensible. To throw Miller out like last week’s garbage when his past became public is even worse. [https://www.si.com/hockey/news/led-by-coyotes-und-and-usa-hockey-the-hockey-world-failed-mitch-miller](https://www.si.com/hockey/news/led-by-coyotes-und-and-usa-hockey-the-hockey-world-failed-mitch-miller) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/102 "2020-11-02T06:35:28Z")
Again, he stalked and intimidated his victim and victim’s family _two years ago_. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/103 "2020-11-02T06:41:55Z")
That’s a good article, **Kenobi** - thanks. Makes me think that like Miller himself, the Coyotes and UND aren’t sorry they did something wrong. They’re all just sorry they got caught. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/104 "2020-11-02T06:42:26Z")
Took the words right out of my mouth. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/105 "2020-11-02T15:19:30Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I’m annoyed that people are not held accountable for this opinion. Not sure what that means. I should somehow be accountable for my opinion? There is some punishment that I deserve? Some remorse that _I_ should show? > [@Melbourne](#): > > If you want remorse and regret, _you have put the offender in a place where he is not under attack._ You can’t get remorse and regret from someone who is defensive, and you can’t get tears from someone facing a court. All you get is a stiff upper lip (aka a stony face), and gut-wrenching fear (aka stomach cramps), and self-destructive heroism (aka fight-or-flight). Okay, so what should we do? Just leave him alone to continue to torment others, and hope that he comes to realize the wrongness of his ways on his own? > [@Melbourne](#): > > I understand the desire to hurt people who have hurt others. I’m familiar with the common belief that it is an effective method of preventing crime. But the expectation that trial and punishment leaves room for remorse and regret is strange. Why strange? If someone is never reprimanded, in fact, is rewarded for their behavior, that is when I would find regret or remorse for behavior to be strange. > [@Melbourne](#): > > It’s at odds with common experience. It’s not what happens here, in the minor bully pit of the SDMB, or out there, in the real world. Then if he cannot find a way to show that he is remorseful for his actions, then he shouldn’t be rewarded. You do realize that the person who was terrorizing a disabled minority was the person in the wrong here, right? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/106 "2020-11-02T16:08:32Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’m not aware of any convicted murderers who are playing in the NHL. The closest story would be that of [Mike Danton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Danton). > Danton played for the [New Jersey Devils](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_Devils) and [St. Louis Blues](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis_Blues) of the [National Hockey League](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Hockey_League) between 2000 and 2004, before being imprisoned for a [conspiracy to commit murder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_to_commit_murder). He was released on [parole](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parole) on September 11, 2009 after 63 months in jail, the original sentence being 90 months. > After being released from prison, he resumed his professional ice hockey career in various European leagues and in North America. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/107 "2020-11-02T17:36:40Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I did not understand the gravity of my actions and how they can affect other people Weasel words. “[C]an” not “did”, and “other people” not “[names]”. Bullshit excuses. Everyone’s got 'em. Yeah he needs a second chance, and a third, and a fourth. He had his seconds chances a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/108 "2020-11-02T18:04:27Z")
Where did the idea that people are owed high-paying, public facing jobs as entertainers and that a team/event/venue/etc. not hiring an entertainer because said entertainer is off-putting to the audience is a horrible wrong even come from? It’s utterly bizarre to me that some people think that an awards show picking a different comedian to host or a sports team picking players that don’t have a history of severe bullying against disabled kids is an affront to basic human decency. The affront to human decency is when this kid attacked his teammate, then stalked and intimidated him two years later, not when the scumbag got rejected from his dream job as a consequence of his actions. All of the wailing and gnashing of teeth about ‘what job could he possibly do now’ ignores that the answer is ‘the kind of job most people do, just not the high-paid one as a professional athlete’. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/109 "2020-11-02T19:27:04Z")
@Pantastic, I think this thread may help you get some insight into the mindset you’re complaining about: [[Getting fired or expelled = punishment. Not being hired or accepted = you aren't owed anything.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372)] Some people seem to equate any negative consequence with punishment. While others (like myself) see Miller not as someone who is being punished, but as someone who is realizing that what one does four years ago can affect what happens today. This is the way the universe works for everyone. And most 14-year-olds have some understanding of this, since there are plenty who follow all the rules and who do their best in school knowing that if they indulged too much in “youthful indiscretions”, they may not be able to get into the college they want or get into the occupation they desire. The law of consequence is not THAT abstract for the average teenager. The ones who struggle with it at 14 probably go on to be 18-year-olds who struggle with it. The Coyotes aren’t punishing this dude. They’ve decided the bad PR associated with him is worse than the benefits he could offer to the team. It’s no different than a person declining a second date with someone they discover has an unsavory past. That someone might be a great lover, but no one should be obligated to take a chance on them if they just aren’t feeling it. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/110 "2020-11-04T18:10:35Z")
Well said, **monstro**. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/111 "2020-11-04T19:55:17Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > All of the wailing and gnashing of teeth about ‘what job could he possibly do now’ ignores that the answer is ‘ **the kind of job most people do** , just not the high-paid one as a professional athlete’. Except many of us wouldn’t hire him for those jobs either. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/112 "2020-11-05T01:45:18Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Except many of us wouldn’t hire him for those jobs either. Many of us–but given how many people voted for Trump, there’s a helluva lot of people who don’t mind hiring a bully. I don’t think it’s going to hurt his not-in-the-public-eye job prospects all that much. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/113 "2020-11-05T12:11:33Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Except many of us wouldn’t hire him for those jobs either. The only reason he was booted from the Coyotes was because the organization had very publicly declared itself to combating racist assholery, and Miller was shown to have engaged in racist assholery in the very recent past and had demonstrated that he doesn’t remotely understand what it means to make amends (apologizing to every team in the league, but not directly to the classmate he bullied just a couple of years ago? WTF??? It’s all pro-forma; there’s no indication of true repentance). This all happened very much in the public eye. There are countless employers out there who haven’t made such public declarations and operate without a lot of scrutiny from the general public. He shouldn’t have any problem finding a job with one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/114 "2020-11-05T12:26:51Z")
I have a former co-worker who was convicted of accounting fraud and actually served time. Now employed as CONTROLLER in a private (i.e. shares not publicly traded) billion dollar company. When someone on social media expressed surprise about this, their explanation was simple. For some employers, being willing to break the law for your boss is a valuable trait. Having a criminal background is also not as much a disqualifying condition for white people. I have another co-worker convicted of a VERY serious offense who is now a sheriff’s deputy. Lost his license and got three years probation. He was hired into law enforcement almost as soon as his probation ended. A simple google search on his name and State turns up news reports of his arrest and conviction. Not everyone is looking for the same values as you are in employees. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/115 "2020-11-05T12:31:35Z")
I would mandate that Miller reach out directly to the victim and his family. He would then be on an EXTREMELY short leash. I’d say about one link in length, in fact. Any incident, and I mean ANY incident that even remotely smacked of bullying or racism would mean the end for him on my team. This is his second chance. He would have to make good. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/116 "2020-11-05T13:54:38Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I would mandate that Miller reach out directly to the victim and his family. Any mandated action is unlikely to result in genuine contrition. I’d be more likely to trust that Miller had changed his ways if he acted without mandate/solicitation to offer a thorough apology to his victim, something like his co-conspirator did. Redemption is (and should be) possible. In 1990 three pilots flew a passenger jet from Fargo to Minneapolis while drunk. The lead pilot lost his license and spent 16 months in jail, but managed to completely turn himself around, becoming a pilot again as well as an addiction counselor. > **[Lyle Prouse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyle_Prouse)** > > Norman Lyle Prouse (born September 29, 1938) is a retired United States airline pilot, U.S. Marine Corps Vietnam veteran, addiction rehabilitation counselor, and author. He received national news attention in March 1990 when he was arrested and faced charges relating to flying a Boeing 727 while intoxicated, after serving as captain of Northwest Airlines Flight 650. After being released from prison, he re-earned the requisite pilot's licenses and ratings and was able to regain employment with Nor... ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/117 "2020-11-05T15:31:43Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > > [@k9bfriender](#): > > > > He has shown no remorse, no regret for his actions, or how they harmed others, just annoyance that he is held accountable for them. > > I’m annoyed that people are not held accountable for this opinion. > > If you want remorse and regret, _you have put the offender in a place where he is not under attack._ You can’t get remorse and regret from someone who is defensive, and you can’t get tears from someone facing a court. All you get is a stiff upper lip (aka a stony face), and gut-wrenching fear (aka stomach cramps), and self-destructive heroism (aka fight-or-flight). > > I understand the desire to hurt people who have hurt others. I’m familiar with the common belief that it is an effective method of preventing crime. But the expectation that trial and punishment leaves room for remorse and regret is strange. It’s at odds with common experience. It’s not what happens here, in the minor bully pit of the SDMB, or out there, in the real world. It’s not our responsibility to create the most comfortable atmosphere for him to express remorse and regret. That is his problem. There are plenty of other people who can do his job. If he can’t find it in himself to even pretend to be a decent person, then fuck him. We don’t need him. ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/118 "2020-11-05T17:10:52Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I would mandate that Miller reach out directly to the victim and his family. That’s assuming the victim _wants_ Miller to reach out to them. If it was me I would not want anything to do with him at all. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/119 "2020-11-05T18:01:38Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > That’s assuming the victim _wants_ Miller to reach out to them. If it was me I would not want anything to do with him at all. Agreed. In fact, I actually thought of that after I posted. I certainly wouldn’t blame them. It would probably be very awkward and even more stressful. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131/120 "2020-11-05T22:54:12Z")
Bullying in childhood can lead to PTSD, drug use, dropping out of school, even suicide in some cases. It also says alot if the schools allowed it or even encouraged it. I think if a person was seriously a bully then if they were to want to go into a public position they should have to stand up and deal with the crimes in their past even. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ones-past-as-an-adolescent-bully-be-used-against-them-in-adulthood/924131.md?page=7)