# Should other countries try "open prisons" like Finland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800 "2015-04-16T01:30:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/1 "2015-04-16T01:30:27Z")
Story [here](http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-04-15/finlands-open-prisons-inmates-have-keys). It’s amazing. Since they started this experiment a few decades ago, Finland has gone from the highest imprisonment rate in Europe to the lowest, and the crime rate has not increased. And it costs less than the old system, too. They now have 2/3 of their prisoners in such facilities. (Of course they acknowledge some prisoners just are not safe to let out of high-security detention.) > [@](#): > > But there aren’t any gates, locks or uniforms — this is an open prison. Everyone at the Kerava open prison applied to be here. They earn about $8 an hour, have cell phones, do their grocery shopping in town and get three days of vacation every couple of months. They pay rent to the prison; they choose to study for a university degree in town instead of working, they get a subsidy for it; they sometimes take supervised camping and fishing trips. > > Inmates know it wouldn’t be hard to escape. "You can go if you want,” Kallio says. “But if you escape, you go back to jail. Better to be here.” > > Open prisons have been around in Finland since about the 1930s. Back then, they were more like labor colonies. These days, they’re the last step of a prison sentence before inmates make the transition back to regular life. And there’s a low recidivism rate. But the most amazing thing is, the free neighbors of these facilities don’t seem to have any NIMBY resentment. > [@](#): > > Locals seem to agree. When I talk to residents near the Kerava open prison, most seem confused when I ask if they’re concerned about sharing the town with convicts. Some tell me that the prisoners improve the community by restoring historic sites or cleaning up public spaces. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/2 "2015-04-16T02:21:53Z")
I don’t know. Should we? What do you think? Would you be wiling to have the pilot program established next to your house? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/3 "2015-04-16T04:18:10Z")
I would be fine with having it next to my house if it’s for non-violent offenses. I’m not exactly worried about a Ken Lay type robbing me at the ATM. If Finland is trying to reform violent criminals this way, then no. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/4 "2015-04-16T05:33:51Z")
Looks more like a halfway house to me, something which exists in many countries. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/5 "2015-04-16T05:50:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I would be fine with having it next to my house if it’s for non-violent offenses. I’m not exactly worried about a Ken Lay type robbing me at the ATM. > > If Finland is trying to reform violent criminals this way, then no. Violent crimes have a huge variance though, even if you just look at murder. Sure, Ted Bundy isn’t a candidate for this system, but someone who snapped and killed a cheating spouse’s partner in the heat of the moment has some anger issues, certainly, but I’m not sure they’re beyond rehabilitation. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/6 "2015-04-16T09:59:26Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Violent crimes have a huge variance though, even if you just look at murder. Sure, Ted Bundy isn’t a candidate for this system, but someone who snapped and killed a cheating spouse’s partner in the heat of the moment has some anger issues, certainly, but I’m not sure they’re beyond rehabilitation. Start someone like that out next to me, that’ll work fine I think. But someone who has been in a US prison for a few years? I am not at all sure I’d want them living next to me no matter how reasonable they were when they entered prison. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/7 "2015-04-16T10:27:51Z")
The US doesn’t quite have this, but Federal prison camps aren’t worlds apart. There’s little to no perimeter fencing, a fairly small number of guards, and the housing is more like dorms than cells. It probably wouldn’t be a challenge for a prisoner to just wander off. They generally don’t, since when they were captured they’d end up in a less pleasant place. Obviously we aren’t sending violent offenders to these places. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/8 "2015-04-16T11:18:53Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Violent crimes have a huge variance though, even if you just look at murder. Sure, Ted Bundy isn’t a candidate for this system, but someone who snapped and killed a cheating spouse’s partner in the heat of the moment has some anger issues, certainly, but I’m not sure they’re beyond rehabilitation. I agree. I just don’t think someone prone to snapping and killing someone should have the ability to leave. Or even someone prone to snapping and beating someone up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/9 "2015-04-16T12:09:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know. Should we? What do you think? Would you be wiling to have the pilot program established next to your house? Thank you for repeating the OP without responding to it, while putting that ominous “NIMBY” touch to it. I think the program could work, providing proper advance notice and question-and-answer sessions are provided to try to counteract the the fears. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/10 "2015-04-16T12:13:30Z")
For those that haven’t bothered to read the article, [ > [@](#): > > … they’re the last step of a prison sentence before inmates make the transition back to regular life. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/11 "2015-04-16T13:41:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know. Should we? What do you think? Would you be wiling to have the pilot program established next to your house? I would. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/12 "2015-04-16T13:43:04Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The US doesn’t quite have this, but Federal prison camps aren’t worlds apart. There’s little to no perimeter fencing, a fairly small number of guards, and the housing is more like dorms than cells. It probably wouldn’t be a challenge for a prisoner to just wander off. They generally don’t, since when they were captured they’d end up in a less pleasant place. Obviously we aren’t sending violent offenders to these places. The difference is, in a Finnish open prison you **get** to “wander off”; the only stipulation is you have to come back by a certain time. I don’t think federal prison camps are that loose. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/13 "2015-04-16T13:55:58Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The US doesn’t quite have this, but Federal prison camps aren’t worlds apart. There’s little to no perimeter fencing, a fairly small number of guards, and the housing is more like dorms than cells. It probably wouldn’t be a challenge for a prisoner to just wander off. They generally don’t, since when they were captured they’d end up in a less pleasant place. Obviously we aren’t sending violent offenders to these places. Don’t we already have something like that with trusties at most county jails and state prisons, as well as halfway houses? I’m not so sure that our system is all that different for the same set of inmates. I’m also guessing that the Finnish inmates in the open prison aren’t violent criminals either. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/14 "2015-04-16T14:03:00Z")
It’s not like this is a new idea. The United States has plenty of prisons like this. I worked in prisons where the prisoners had jobs - they’d commute to work every morning, do their job out among the public, and then commute back to prison each evening after work. A surprisingly large number of prisoners go in and out of prison unsupervised on a regular basis. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/15 "2015-04-16T14:07:49Z")
Sounds like a cross between a halfway house and a temporary/ work-release facilty to me. Both of which exist in NYS - imates may leave every day to go to work or school or job training (at locations that have nothing to do with the prison) and return to the prison or they may sleep as few as two nights per week at the prison. Although many are close to release, I know of one inmate who was in a work release program for nearly 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![skdo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@skdo23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skdo23)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/16 "2015-04-16T15:37:31Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > …someone who snapped and killed a cheating spouse’s partner in the heat of the moment has some anger issues, certainly, but I’m not sure they’re beyond rehabilitation. Maybe. But, as a practical matter, you’ve probably just described [O.J. Simpson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._J._Simpson_robbery_case). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/17 "2015-04-16T16:20:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And there’s a low recidivism rate. I’m far from considering myself knowledgeable about outcomes from incarceration, but I have to think that a prisoner being released into a society with far greater income equality than the United States would have a far, far greater impact on recidivism than the conditions in a prison. For example, if country A presents convicts with reasonable prospects of reestablishing a normal life after release, I would think that would lower the propensity to return to crime, and also possibly make the prison experience different in general. If country B basically guarantees that a former convict will remain in the underclass, then what hope is there no matter how pleasant the prison experience may be? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/18 "2015-04-16T16:46:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Story [here](http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-04-15/finlands-open-prisons-inmates-have-keys). It’s amazing. Since they started this experiment a few decades ago, Finland has gone from the highest imprisonment rate in Europe to the lowest, and **the crime rate has not increased.** (My emphasis.) Given that the crime rate has decreased substantially in much of the Western world that’s not much of a statement. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/19 "2015-04-16T17:18:28Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Don’t we already have something like that with trusties at most county jails and state prisons, as well as halfway houses? I’m not so sure that our system is all that different for the same set of inmates. > > I’m also guessing that the Finnish inmates in the open prison aren’t violent criminals either. Read the article, some of them are murderers. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800/20 "2015-04-16T19:47:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Read the article, some of them are murderers. Yes, and from the article, as pointed out above “they’re the last step of a prison sentence before inmates make the transition back to regular life”. So many of these guys were in harsher prisons before attending this open prison. This therefore is not an argument for too cosy a prison system. Where does the 2/3 figure come from? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-other-countries-try-open-prisons-like-finland/717800.md?page=2)