# Should Pan-handling Be Illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729 "2003-09-05T14:59:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![In\_Conceivable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4bbf92/32.png) [@In\_Conceivable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Conceivable)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/21 "2003-09-05T19:34:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stonebow \* > \*\*IAlso bear in mind, by making it illegal, I’m not condoning imprisonment…but I think that police would have a an obligation to transport the panhandler to the nearest shelter or other agency that offers services for the homeless. \*\* Which shelter or agency? People who think that it is so easy for the homeless to get help should really do some work with the homeless agency in their town. First, not every agency can help every homeless person. Does the person have a drug or drinking problem? A mental health issue? Children? A criminal record? All of these factors make a big difference in what agency (if any) in a certain town is willing or even able to help a homeless individual. Shelters aren’t bottomless pits you can just stick homeless people into. In the current economy they sometimes fill up quickly. The organization I am involved with has to turn away a family who meets our criteria every week. We turn away people who don’t meet the criteria every day. We can’t help everyone. We wish we could but the resources and bed space only go so far and we have to make choices on who we give it to. Most cities and towns have inadequate resources to help the homeless and aren’t interested in having any more. Have you ever tried to open a new shelter? The only place the town will let you build one is an area that even the homeless don’t want to go. I would rather take my chances sleeping on the street down town then spend the night in the only area that meets the town zoning criteria for a new shelter. My town had a wonderful plan to get rid of the homeless men who sleep under the bridge. They burned their stuff. That’s right, they burned their stuff. The men didn’t have much, a couple of mattresses, a few blankets, a handful of clothing and the city decided that the right thing to do was to burn it. Could these men go to the Salvation Army shelter to spend the night? No, the Salvation Army shelter was full. Can the Salvation Army build a new bigger shelter down town where the homeless are? No, because somehow they think that a nice new shelter will attract more homeless people! “Honey sell the house, I hear the new homeless shelter is a great place to live!” ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/22 "2003-09-05T19:35:43Z")
Well if we can’t ban them can we at least get them better clothes? I mean the tattered, layered look is _so_ twenty years ago! ---
**Author:** ![Isabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5a626/32.png) [@Isabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabelle)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/23 "2003-09-05T19:39:53Z")
After a little research I just found out that the panhandlers were such a nusiance downtown that they recently painted blue boxes in the spots where it is acceptable for the panhandlers to go. (away from the businesses) They are not allowed out of the box or it is a $50 fine. The Mayor is currently addressing banning all panhandling from the city limits. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/24 "2003-09-05T19:41:20Z")
My compassion for panhandlers got eaten up when I lived in Seattle. There are maybe 100 hardcore professional panhandlers in that city who, with frightening efficiency, corner the market on panhandling and earn more money doing it than I make at my straight job. That takes talent and enterprise. These guys don’t meet my definition of “needy” (and plenty of poor people in Seattle do). If you give money to a panhandler, you aren’t helping a needy person out of poverty. Since I guarantee you the money will go to liquor or drugs, you’re actually helping him remain a substance abuser. Sometimes I’m approached in grocery store parking lots for spare change. If they seem genuine, I’ll give them fresh fruit instead. It salves my conscience and, if their need is real, helps them, too. I don’t think they can swap strawberries for a crack rock. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/25 "2003-09-05T19:43:43Z")
I think it should be illegal. Where I am, they all have the same story, “My car broke down, and I need to go 300 miles to pick up my daughter who is standed” or just plain and simple, “do you have some change?” I usually ask where there car is, and I can have my husband look at it. This is when they tell me that their car is somewhere far away. :rolleyes: If someone asks me for some change for food, I always take them to the closest restaurant, and tell them to get whatever they want. It makes me happy when they actually agree to this. I had a lady follow me and my daughter out of WalMart. She kept asking me for change. I had just taken money out of the ATM, but I had no change. She followed me to my truck. I was getting quite flustered at this point. I told my daughter to get into the truck while I put my groceries in the back. This woman proceeded to tell me a sob story about her car. Wow, I never heard that one before. I think she had this planned. As I was trying to arrange my bags, like an idiot, I forgot that my purse/planner was still in the top part of my cart. I should have been paying attention, but she had me all annoyed. Yep, she took it. She got over $400, plus all my ID and credit cards. All I can say is that I hope she needed the money desperately. I sure hope what goes around comes around. Definately should be illegal. Actually, now that I think about it, I should had called the cops as she was following me. Harassment, right? Oh well, what are you gonna do! AmericanMaid, what makes you think that these people don’t donate to shelters? Who told you that they don’t think of things to do to help out? It makes my life harder when these people harass and steal form me. Don’t think that they won’t do it again. Maybe you’ll get lucky, and a pan-handler will harass you and figure out a way to steal from you. Ignorance should be illegal, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![In\_Conceivable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4bbf92/32.png) [@In\_Conceivable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Conceivable)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/26 "2003-09-05T19:51:37Z")
It is already illegal to steal from people **JerseyDiamond**. I don’t know how an anti-panhandling law is going to stop someone from stealing your purse. Really, on what basis do you think it is constitutional to prevent people from asking other people for money? ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/27 "2003-09-05T20:07:30Z")
If she wasn’t harassing me/pan handeling, I wouldn’t have been in such a rush, or so flustered that she kept following me. If pan-handeling was illegal, she might not have been asking me for money, and I would have my wallet right now. Maybe if it was illegal, people would be more inclined to get a job. I always see McDonald’s signs that say, “Now Hiring”. If I had no skills, and no money, That is where I would go. I know it’s illegal for people to steal, that is why I filed a police report on this woman. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/28 "2003-09-05T20:31:17Z")
I’m uncomfortable with the “they should just be in a shelter” argument. What gives you the right to tell them how they should live? It seems they are trying to make a living on their own. What skin is it off your back, if you don’t even give them any money? I’d be thrilled if people who know that all panhandlers are scammers actually did some reading on the subject. Try typing “homeless” into Google and see what happens. Look what I learned today: Shelters are great if you don’t mind TB, the constant threat of getting your stuff stolen, and extremely close quarters with many strangers. [A Report by the City of Toronto and the Toronto Disaster Relief Committee on the conditions in homeless shelters](http://www.tdrc.net/ShelterBooklet.pdf) (Caution: PDF) > [@](#): > > “I have worked in dozens of refugee camps, responsible for thousands of people. Some of the conditions in Toronto shelters are worse than in refugee camps in Rwanda, in terms of space, sanitation and prevenitive health care practices.” > > - Rick Wallace, former United Nations humanitarian aid worker And they can’t always just get a job. Many homeless in Toronto are psychiatric patients that have been thrown on the street [Canadian Mental Health Association](http://www.ontario.cmha.ca/content/about_mental_illness/homelessness.asp?cID=3975) > [@](#): > > People with serious mental illness are disproportionately affected by homelessness. … Housing is a mental health issue and the absence of decent housing is a major determinant of health. > > The link between homelessness and mental illness is well documented: > > - 30-35 percent of the homeless in general, and up to 75 percent of homeless women specifically, have a mental illness. > - 20-25 percent of homeless people suffer from concurrent disorders (severe mental illness and addictions). > - People who have a severe mental illness are over-represented in the homeless population, as they were released from hospitals and jails without proper community supports in place for them. > - In Ontario, 6,100 people sleep in shelters every night – out of these, 2,013 have a mental illness, and 1,220 have an additional concurrent disorder. > - People with mental illness ‘remain homeless for longer periods of time and have less contact with family and friends. They encounter more barriers to employment and tend to be in poorer health than other homeless people.’ > [@](#): > > Refugee claimants rank among the top three groups of Toronto’s homeless [cite](http://www.christianity.ca/mission/global/2003/06.011.html) Some actually have jobs ! imagine that. (emphasis mine.) > [@](#): > > Of this “snap-shot” sample taken in 1987 [in Canada], 45 per cent were **actually employed** , underscoring the fact that not all the homeless are without resources, but that many live in conditions of poverty and underemployment [Share International](http://www.shareintl.org/archives/homelessness/hl-ch_Canada.htm) I’ll say it again: If you don’t like them, **don’t give them any money**. If they harass you, or steal your purse, or bang on your car, they are committing a crime. If they are asking you for money, and you say no, where’s the harm? I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/29 "2003-09-05T20:40:27Z")
If only it was/is as easy as just saying “no”. I wasn’t thinking properly. I should have called the cops. Next time, I will not give it a second thought. ---
**Author:** ![Isabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5a626/32.png) [@Isabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabelle)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/30 "2003-09-05T20:44:34Z")
I’ve been homeless before and with a child. It’s no picnic. Luckily I belonged to a church that helped me find work, a place to live and a place that was safe for my child. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/31 "2003-09-05T20:47:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jeevmon \* > I doubt such a licensing scheme could pass Constitutional muster because it would be a speech restriction that is content-based. In other words, someone panhandling for spare change is required to get a license, but someone soliciting funds for the Republican National Committe would not. Ditto on the place restriction. > > There are generally vagrancy or loitering laws that could be enforced to crack down on panhandling, though again, there could be a Constitutional problem if the police are only arresting the panhandlers and not those who are soliciting funds for other goals. > > Point is - panhandling is speech, and any attempt to try and single out that form of speech for disparate treatment invokes the First Amendment. Really? I thought commercial speech was not covered by the 1st amendment. Someone soliciting funds for themselves is engaged in commercial activity, no? Also, IANAL but I thought vagrancy laws were ruled unconstitutional quite awhile ago. Can’t say I remember what right was being violated, though. ---
**Author:** ![dakravel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@dakravel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dakravel)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/32 "2003-09-05T20:54:02Z")
An interesting thing to think about is this. If you’ve ever applied for a job, you know how there are a lot of itty bitty boxes to fill out on the application form, right? Now, how about that one that says “Current Address”? What is a homeless person to do in that case? Sure, he can fill out some homeless shelter, or even nothing, but that’s a bit of a giveaway as to his current state of living, and furthermore, how many managers would hire a homeless man over other qualified applicants? I’d say it’d be pretty damn hard for a homeless man to get a job at McDonald’s. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/33 "2003-09-05T21:01:29Z")
But the sign on the door says ‘Now Hiring’! ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/34 "2003-09-05T21:05:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Isabelle \* > \*\*You’ve all encountered pan-handlers before, whether on the side of the road requesting food & money or worse yet directly in front of your favorite establishment. They are a nuisance. > > With all the Day labor agencies in town there is always a way to make cash on a daily basis if they really wanted/needed money. If they are a Vet then the Veterans Admin can help them. Finding shelter isn’t that difficult when you have the Salvation Army around and other non-profit agencies. > > \*\* “Are there no prisons?” asked Scrooge. “Plenty of prisons,” said the gentleman, laying down the pen again. “And the Union workhouses?” demanded Scrooge. “Are they still in operation?” “They are. Still,” returned the gentleman, “I wish I could say they were not.” “The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?” said Scrooge. “Both very busy, sir.” “Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,” said Scrooge. “I’m very glad to hear it.” Charles Dickens, “A Christmas Carol” ---
**Author:** ![jeevmon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@jeevmon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeevmon)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/35 "2003-09-05T21:09:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Really? I thought commercial speech was not covered by the 1st amendment. Someone soliciting funds for themselves is engaged in commercial activity, no? Also, IANAL but I thought vagrancy laws were ruled unconstitutional quite awhile ago. Can’t say I remember what right was being violated, though. \*\* Just because it involves money does not necessarily make it commercial speech, and commercial speech does fall within the First Amendment, albeit with some qualifications. I think it would be a stretch to characterize soliciting donations for any purpose as being commercial speech. As an example - if soliciting donations for political or social causes qualifies as free speech, then any statements made in connection with those solicitations could potentially be subject to the false advertising laws (which are strict liability statutes) rather than the more permissive defamation laws (which are not strict liability). IAAL, but I’m not 100% sure about vagrancy laws in general, but there are various laws that fall into the category of vagrancy laws that could be used, such as laws against public intoxication or sleeping in public areas. Aggressive panhandling is also obviously punishable. There are ways to clear out certain categories of panhandlers, but generally speaking, their conduct is protected. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/36 "2003-09-05T21:25:24Z")
I would be hard pressed to believe that someone soliciting money for their own personal use would not be considered to be engaged in commercial speach. And commercial speach can be regulated. Supposing I decide to set up shop on the sidewalk and sell CDs of my music that I recorded myself. That can be regulated. No different if I bypass the whole “inconvenience” of actually selling anything and just have people give me money. ---
**Author:** ![jeevmon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@jeevmon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeevmon)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/37 "2003-09-05T21:44:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*I would be hard pressed to believe that someone soliciting money for their own personal use would not be considered to be engaged in commercial speach. And commercial speach can be regulated. Supposing I decide to set up shop on the sidewalk and sell CDs of my music that I recorded myself. That can be regulated. No different if I bypass the whole “inconvenience” of actually selling anything and just have people give me money. \*\* Um, no, because in the one case you are offering a product or service, and in the other you are not. The fact that they’re CDs you recorded yourself of your music doesn’t make the CD any less a commodity that you’re selling. Commercial speech generally has to be tied to the sale or proposed sale of a good or service. (There is actually some vagueness in this, admittedly, and the Supreme Court regrettably passed on an opportunity to clarify the issue by refusing to grant cert on a case where Nike was held to the commercial speech standards of truth when defending its overseas labor practices against attacks from advocacy groups. But that’s neither here nor there.) And even if it were characterized as commercial speech, the government still has a burden to meet to regulate it and its ability to do so is not completely unfettered. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/38 "2003-09-05T21:57:29Z")
WWJD? I think he’d probably be ok with banning panhandling. Helping the needy is all well and good, but you shouldn’t have to feel _uncomfortable_! That’s just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/39 "2003-09-05T23:00:23Z")
**Jersey** , don’t you call yourself a Christian? Didn’t Jesus say something about helping others? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729/40 "2003-09-05T23:16:35Z")
I just about always got a buck for a beggar. Got to get hit with some seriously negative vibes to say no, just about never. I haven’t got time to judge whether someone deserves it or not, even if I were competent to do so. Make it illegal? What the fuck for, incentive? As Will Rogers said, “It ain’t against the law to be poor, but it might as well be.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pan-handling-be-illegal/199729.md?page=3)