Hi, I just had to comment on this, being one of those kids. Well, actually, I left of my own accord due to abuse and neglect, but I had to work and go to school and do all that and I didn’t get a dime of support following my legal emancipation at age 17.
It was definitely the worst year of my entire life, and there was epic drama, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, but my grades didn’t slip. I graduated Salutatorian and got a full-ride scholarship and am now a Master’s student.
I never expected, or wanted, a dime of my parents’ money and I have never understood the mentality that parents are obligated to support their children beyond age 18. I think it’s nice that some of them do, but I do not feel there is a moral obligation. My parents did some messed up things, but one thing I am grateful for is that they prepared me for something none of us saw coming. AFAIC they did their job well in that regard, because when the shit really hit the fan and I had no-one to fall back on, I was responsible and experienced enough to take charge of my own life and make something of it. It is because I wasn’t coddled that I succeeded.
4 years of military service will get you set up very nicely for college. 6 years even more so. Montgomery GI bill benefits are $1300 a month, plus up to a $950 kicker if you got certain jobs, and the benefits last 36 months. Sure, you go to college at 24, but you do it with $81,000 in your pocket. More if you actually save some of the quite decent paycheck they get.
Post 9/11 GI bill is a bit different, as it just pays for the equivalent of a full ride at a state school, including room and board, rather than a check every month. Can still get the $950 kickers though.
The company I work for covers 75% of tuition.
Mommy and daddy aren’t the only methods of getting cash for an education. If you aren’t getting a free handout, its time to step up and do what you have to in order to get what you need.
Legal obligation? Definitely not. Moral obligation? Not exactly, no, but they should be morally obliged to make it official that they’re not prepared to support their child. One university frind of mine was disowned by her family for the entirely stupid reason that they wanted her to study law and she wanted to study medicine; they were wealthy, so she ended up entitled to nothing.
Another medical student friend of mine was completely fucked over when herparents found out she was gay; they stopped all financial support for her. She was near the end of medical school n London and she came from Jersey, so suddenly she was liable for non-EU fees.
At the moment, in the UK, parents aren’t legally obliged to support their children beyond the age of 16. It’s very difficult for kids that age to get jobs they can live on and even more difficult to get welfare (and that welfare will not be available if they study full time), so they’re in an impoverished limbo.
Kids who started school this year are legally obliged to attend school (or training) till 17, and within a couple of years it’ll be 18 - I have no idea how the government squares that with nobody being obliged to financially support 16-17 year-old students.
Boy, they went to a lot of extra trouble in your neck of the woods- around here the kids moved in to an apartment, all right- the one in their parents basement. Or claimed to be living at Grandma’s.
I wonder if I’m a couple years younger, when it went from “not claiming them as a dependent on your taxes for a year” to “not claiming them and them having a different provable address for a year.” I do think a few years before I went to school it was a simple as not claiming them on your taxes for a year.
BTW, I don’t believe in UCE because it devalues education, I don’t believe in it because I think the U.S. has better things to spend money on - including health care. I do think the states are obligated to provide community colleges and state colleges at something “near” affordable to their residents - though that might mean working full time and going to school half time to make it affordable - not the “traditional dorm college life going full time” affordable. What I don’t believe in is the idea that the state should provide financial aid to everyone who wants to go to (and can get into) Carleton or Columbia.
I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately as I have two small girls and my wife just left. When we didn’t have two households to pay for we were able to put money away for college for the girls. Now with child support and such I have a hard time living myself, let alone putting any money away for college.
I’ve talked to lawyers, financial people and my father who put me through college. They’ve all said the same thing, don’t save any money now, when the time comes get a home equity loan if you want. Isn’t that the exact opposite of what I want to do? I’ll be near retirement age by that time and I’d rather not have a new home loan at the time, and I would think you’d have more money if you put it away now.
I don’t think it’s a legal obligation, nor do I really think it’s a moral one. It is however one that I want to do because my father did it for me and I’d rather not have my children start off life with a massive debt.
Well, obviously all children are not top-of-the class motivated students who would qualify for a scholarship. And you didn’t expect a dime of their money past age 18 because you weren’t raised that way. But I think if your family dynamic had been one of love and support, and you had seen older brothers and sisters sent off to college and coming home each summer, working part-time jobs and then back to college in the fall, you would think differently.
And are you truly saying that the abuse and neglect you experienced was the best way to prepare you for life? And that love and support and a good family structure is coddling? Truly? I think perhaps you and Diogenes have that survivor’s mindset that because you didn’t have an easy time and “made” it, everyone who takes a different path is weak and inferior. I feel bad for you that there was a point in your life that you didn’t have anyone to fall back on. That is just incredibly sad and depressing to contemplate, and I’m glad you’ve come out the other side whole. But that doesn’t mean that is the only path to becoming whole.
There is a huge difference between helping one’s kids with college expenses, and keeping them on your insurance as long as possible, and giving in to a full ride at a fancy university just to have them party four years away. My twin nieces are currently attending college at two different schools. One is in medical school. The thought that my brother and his wife would ever, ever cut off support for them while they are in school is reprehensible to me. They both have scholarships. They both work part time jobs during vacation. They are good kids who think studying is the Most Fun Ever. But they are not coddled in any way, shape or form. They both still have their rooms at home, and are expected to come home while on breaks. And they will land on their feet no matter what the future will hold. Being part of a loving family hasn’t made them weak…it has helped them be strong. It is just one path of many.
Save for your own retirement first. Save what you can for your kids college now, but don’t live a life of poverty to do it. Set the expectation with your kids and your ex-wife that your ability to pay for college will not be unlimited.
You do not want to be taking out loans at retirement age, unless you plan on delaying retirement or will have saved enough to be able to pay off those loans in retirement, in which case, why take out the loans?
If you make this so then an 18 year old needs to be able to survive on his own. This means health insurance and this means having opportunities to better himself through college (for example).
This means that an 18 year old needs to be able to afford health insurance and college on his own. This means, for example, realizing that an 18 year old cannot frickin afford thousands of dollars, let alone 10’s of thousands of dollars, in tuition and shit.
Back when I was a wee lad, I paid $45 per semester including fees. That same school is over $4000 per semester and that is considered cheap. Freaking ridiculous that we expect young adults to do this.
I’m asthmatic, so the military wouldn’t have acepted me even if I didn’t have HUGE issues with joining the military. Many companies that used to have tuition reimbursement plans have cut back or eliminated them, and ethe ones who haven’t generally make them very restrictive (one course per semester, only if job-related, and only on supervisory approval, at my former employer, just to give one example).
I’m not saying it’s impossible - two friends of mine put themselves through college one clas at a time by working for universities. But it’s quite impractical even if you can swing it.
No, I’m saying that I’m glad I was given responsibility from an early age and told that I would be cut off at 18. I’m glad. That’s not abuse, it’s not neglect, it’s the way a lot of kids are raised, and they don’t wither away and die.
For all their failures, forcing me to be responsible for myself from a young age had the fortunate effect of making me a much more competent 17-year-old adult. Yes, it was hard, both emotionally and practically, but it gave me the freedom to escape abuse. Isn’t that ironic? My parents raised me with the ability to escape their own abuse. I would argue that if they had not raised me to be so self-sufficient the idea of leaving home and supporting myself would have never even occurred to me.
I think that’s a lot of extrapolation to take from my statement that I’m glad I was able to be responsible for myself at age 17 when most kids in that situation would have been completely lost. I knew what I had to do and did it. That is because even in neglectful/abusive situations, parents can still provide something valuable, and mine did when they raised me with the expectation that I was going to be an independent adult. When I decided to emancipate, thanks to the good part of my upbringing, I knew what to expect. In fact, the day I decided to do it, I sat down and wrote a list of everything I needed to do, from obtaining insurance to getting a job to filing court papers.
So I’m not saying I’m glad I was abused (Well, I am because of the person it made me, but that’s beside the point.) I’m saying I’m glad I was taught to take responsibility for myself. I do not accept that because my parents did some horrible things this means I should reject everything they did as horrible. I do not believe I would have succeeded so well if it weren’t for the expectation of self-sufficiency. I realize it may be hard to understand the distinction I’m trying to make between being taught responsibility appropriately and being treated like shit, but I promise you both happened in my household growing up, and while the latter creates a host of other problems, it doesn’t cancel out the happy reality of the former.
Ergo, I feel I should be taken seriously when I say I was one of those cut-off kids and I’M GLAD. It made dealing with shit so much easier. And it made estrangement so much easier when that was necessary. Do you know how many kids with shit home lives in college I knew who felt ‘‘trapped’’ in a relationship with a parent because they were so financially dependent? Do you know how many kids feel like they are held hostage by their parents’ money? I never had that. I’ve always been free. That’s a good thing.
Of course it’s not. I specifically said I think it’s nice that some parents can help their children with college. I do not believe it is a moral obligation. I certainly do not think someone who cannot or does not help their children with college is being cruel. While it’s nice not to have student loans, it’s not a requirement for success in life.
I’m glad you have a healthy, happy family and responsible nieces. Unlike many people where I come from, I don’t believe partial financial dependence during college is necessarily a bad/irresponsible thing. My husband was supported 100% by his grandparents throughout his entire undergraduate education. He has always been a responsible, hard-working guy, and that was true way before he finally achieved financial independence.
The question is whether your brother would be a horrible person if he decided to use his own money for retirement or medical bills or whatever else instead of your nieces’ education. That answer is, no, he is not morally obligated to support them financially. All he owes his adult children is a lifetime of unconditional love. If your family is so loving and strong then those kids are going to succeed no matter what.
If a person with rich parents needs public-funded services, like health care or education, it seems fitting that the rich parents bear some kind of burden for the cost.
While I agree with you that it’s a bit ridiculous to price college and insurance out of the market for most 18 year-olds, the fact is, many of us still managed to do it anyway. Do I think it’s right that I (and others) had to start our adult lives up to our butts in debt? No. Did it teach me how to budget and help me build up a great credit rating? Yep. Do I value my education more because I worked my ass off for it than if my mommy and daddy had handed it to me on a silver platter? You betcher ass I do.
My dad, while being a dick at times, always used to say, “If you want something badly enough, you’ll figure out a way to make it happen.” IME, he’s right. For anything that I cared deeply enough about, there was no obstacle I couldn’t overcome. I learned that nothing worth having comes easily, without hard work and persistence.
This neglects the fact that the cost of secondary education has been increasing at several times the rate of inflation for decades now. When did you graduate college? When my boss went to college, he could pay his way by working summers and a part-time job during the year. These days, even to go to a state school you’d practically have to be turning tricks to pull that off.
For me the hard cut-off is 21. At 18 there are still things you can’t do in society. Renting a car is nearly impossible, for instance. Signing a lease, in some areas as well. I think at 18 the child should have the right to declarehim/herself free, but that the parent’s moral obligation extends to age 21. After that, it’s a matter of personal values and priorities.
I hope I’ll always be a sort of safety net for Celtling. But then my daughter is enormously independent already, adn I have no fear of her become a parasite.
I was on my own at 17, and it was absolutely the best decision I could have made. I think my brother suffered greatly for his extra years of dependence upon our parents.
1991, State school in the midwest. It was, at that time, one of the least expensive schools in the state. IIRC, the first year cost me almost exactly $5K for everything, books, tuition, beer, room & board, everything. Tuition and expenses went up about 10-15% each year. I added it up after my graduation and discovered that I’d somehow managed to put together about $40K for my entire four years. That is what my 20-year-old nephew will spend on two years at his private AA-degree college. So I’d say college expenses have doubled (basically) in 20 years.
I could not make enough money at that time (min wage was $3.35/hour) working full time over the summer to make tuition, room, board, & books. Even if I could find a gig that was closer to $5/hour, I couldn’t do it. I saved every penny I could, did not blow my money on electronics, clothes, music, concerts, or luxuries at all. I’d work a couple jobs all summer long and one Fall Quarter tuition payment later, it was all gone and I still had to come up with room, board, books & supplies.
I applied for FAFSA and got some grants, but not in the first year. I had to move out to the poorer parent’s house in order to get a better FAFSA package.
I got a couple very small scholarships that didn’t amount to much, but every bit helped.
I took two student loans over the course of four years, totalling about $12K.
I qualified for Work-Study and worked part-time, all four years. (Erm. Closer to five actually.) Couldn’t handle more than 15 work hours a week or my grades would suffer. I do not know how people work full time and go to school full time.
I typed and edited papers for people. I also wrote and edited resumes and cover letters for people (still do that as a freelance gig).
I sold weed sometimes.
I babysat for professors or co-workers. Or house sat. Or walked dogs. Or whatever I could do to put together food and beer money. I tutored freshmen.
I stopped short of turning tricks and/or posing nude for the art department, although now I’m sorry I didn’t try the nude modeling. The money for that was awesome just for standing around nekkid (around $8 or $9 an hour, which was unheard of back then for a nonskilled gig) and I’ll never get my 18-year-old body back again. Should’ve done it while I still looked that good.
Also, had there been strip clubs in the town I went to school, I would have seriously considered stripping my way through college. I’d do it now without hesitation, but I had less self-confidence back in the day and probably would have chickened out. Hey, if my 401(k) tanks again, you all know where you’ll find me: stripping for my Backup Retirement Plan.
It wasn’t easy. It wasn’t like I just worked three months out of the year and then coasted on my phat cash the rest of the school year. I had to hustle year-round, all four and 3/4 years. I couldn’t waste money on clothes, fresh vegetables, concerts, Spring Break in Florida, road trips, or any of the other frivolous fun shit my fellow students were able to do because most had at least some parental assistance. I had to make sacrifices and live a fairly monastic life and I had to work hard to not be bitter and jealous about my friends who could afford to eat out or go see a concert or something.
With all do respect…not everyone out there is…what is the word…as strong as you. Not everyone out there can handle all that at 18. That doesn’t make them weak or worthless…just that they need less higher hurdles to jump over early in their lives.
To label them weak/worthless would be such a waste. Jane might make a great doctor but she couldn’t handle all the hurdles you did early so she doesn’t become one…
The thing that most seems to bother me about the attitude of many people is that the strong should survive and the weak perish and strong/weak is defined almost exclusively as economic. In reality Jane might make a completely kick-ass doctor but if she has to hold 2 full time jobs and want it bad enough to keep going that might be too much for her. She might lack the physical stamina or self worth or whatever to do it and it would be such a waste.
I’m not saying we should make it cushy and easy for the young. There needs to be some pushing/hurdles for them to overcome and there is…in Spades. I am just arguing that those hurdles are way too high today. It was tough enough for me as a wee lad to make enough to live and go to school full time and my tuition was essentially zero.
For disclosure, my perception comes from a life where I got shit from my parents. I got shit from any relatives. Not once in my entire life has anyone ‘mentored’ me or ‘took me under their wing’…which causes problems whenever the topic of ‘best mentor’ comes up.
I was the first person in my family to go to college and the first to go to grad school. If I hadn’t met someone who took 10 minutes out of her day to briefly outline what to do I don’t know if I would have had the knowledge to even know what to look for and do what I did. Throw huge tuition bills on top of what I had to deal with and I don’t know if I would have made it.
Life is too fucking harsh for some who have great potential. College tuition costs these days make me rabid and foaming at the mouth. It’s just WRONG, IMO.
Twenty years later, I couldn’t agree more with you. When I was 21 and still brimming with resentment over my roommate’s 20 new sweaters she got for Christmas (“I got a rock.”) I was much more harshly judgmental of people. As I’ve matured, it has occurred to me that the college degree doesn’t really mean anything in terms of whether or not I will respect a person. You are absolutely right that my path is not the One True Right Path for everyone. In my middle age, I’m learning to temper that harsh judgment and respect people for who they are and how they treat others, not by how self-sufficient they are or how much help their mommy gave them when they were young.
Because, 20 years later, none of that makes fuck all bit of difference. It was like stressing over my class rank in high school: Five minutes after graduation, it meant nothing.
